When does "profiteering" overlap with asking market price?

[Talksthetorque]

A member has today put a post up for some of the hallowed folding top covers.
They are on for less than the last set went for on ebay, according to another forum member and there have been the same items on here before, by a ,ahem, well known (former?) member too.
Also prices for Z4MRs and MCs seem to be doing a bit more than stabilising.
I am starting this thread to ask the website operators - and if it doesn't cause - canvas opinion from members on their thoughts about the profiteering section of the rules.

I see several possible solutions.
1 Keep the current rules. For the vast majority of the time they work. If someone wants to sell something rare, or their car has appreciated in price, they should sell elsewhere.
2 Allow people to put up what they want for however much they want. But (continue to) allow the forum freedom to comment on the price and possible availability elsewhere. ( STONE HIM! STONE HIM!)
3. If the price is more than someone paid for it, but the price has risen in the open market - an email to the mods asking permission prior to posting the ad - with the necessity to show non-profiteering and market rises. Only for Z4s and parts/related items, though, not the latest ipad etc.
4. As 3 but for any items.
I Invite your comments

[bluestreak56]

Sell what you want at whatever price you want. If someone wishes to pay for it thats up to them. If nobody wishes to then the seller can ask for feedback.

Thats how most selling works.

[Smartbear]

Its a free market so people should be free to sell at there own price, but it does leave a nasty taste in the mouth & its hardly in the spirit of the forum if the item has an inflated price.
It can help with price "adjustments" if the (polite) comments are allowed.
regards

[Angie4m]

Possibly option 3. I totally get that you shouldn't be buying something to sell a few days later at profit. As much as I would like to sell items to other members, if it meant having to sell well below market price meaning I lose out I'd just sell elsewhere. The biggest issue like you say will be cars themselves. I just have to look at what Mike paid for his R32 and what it's worth today more than double what he paid in 2007. I wouldn't expect him to sell for less than half its now worth just to sell to a forum member

[maxman]

The forum rules are fine as they are,if you don't like them sell elsewhere .
If a member sells a car that he has added value to and the price reflects this ,that's fair enough.

[srhutch]

The forum rules are fine as they are,if you don't like them sell elsewhere .
If a member sells a car that he has added value to and the price reflects this ,that's fair enough.

Very hard to add value to a car as all pricing is subjective. You could argue I've added value to my soft top covers by painting them black. Where do you draw the line?

I think common sense needs to be used and let the forum self regulate. When paza3 put up an E89 for about 4k more than he paid for it a month earlier he just slated, to which I agree. He should have just put it on PH or AT.

But if somebody buys something on here or elsewhere and a year or two later it's worth more then I have no issue. Again the forum will say something if they see something for sale that is taking the pee.

[Jaw]

1 Keep the current rules. For the vast majority of the time they work. If someone wants to sell something rare, or their car has appreciated in price, they should sell elsewhere.
2 Allow people to put up what they want for however much they want. But (continue to) allow the forum freedom to comment on the price and possible availability elsewhere. ( STONE HIM! STONE HIM!)
3. If the price is more than someone paid for it, but the price has risen in the open market - an email to the mods asking permission prior to posting the ad - with the necessity to show non-profiteering and market rises. Only for Z4s and parts/related items, though, not the latest ipad etc.
4. As 3 but for any items.
I Invite your comments

Not sure I agree..

1. Keeping to the rules is fine, why should someone have to sell elsewhere if its rare or has appreciated - surely a forum of people in the know is the best place for it
2. Good in theory but there has to be a line. Pointing out a steep price is fine but slating someone for sour grapes because they bought it for less isn't on imo
3.asking permission to sell an item is counter productive IMO and unnecessary

I dunno I don't see why anyone should be limited to what they want to sell something for. If someone can afford to sell something for a bargain and then someone buys it and needs to move it on, why should they have to sell on the cheap too? If someone wants to ask a premium for their pride and joy, that's their business, if someone likes it or needs it and an alternative won't do, they'll buy it. If not, they won't.

Leave people free to comment as long as it's accurate and productive - that way, if people do want to try and rip people off then they can make the choice not to list on the forum

[mmm-five]

Option 2 for me.

'Added value' could mean modifying or refurbishing an item, or it could simply mean that you've spent time & effort researching, searching, buying something rare.

If I've spent time & effort finding something, and happen to find the only 2 in existence, then I don't see why my effort shouldn't be rewarded.

If I don't like the price of something for sale, I might make a 'too rich for me' comment, but I won't berate someone for asking for what they think is a fair price. Maybe it's artificially set high so that there's room for negotiation, or that it's so rare that pricing it becomes a guessing game or a bidding war.

[Rob s]

I think the current system works well. A little common sense is needed all round. I dont see any issue with someone asking for more if the market value of an item has incrreased, like the M's have recently.

Although i do think anyone buying an item on here (especially if its sold cheaper with a forum discount) shouldnt re sell at a higher price. If you get a good deal from a member then you should pass that on come resale.

[marchantsuk]

Price fixing is and has been for a long time illegal, why should the forum be any different?
Something is only worth what anyone is willing to pay, end of. If you want to sell high then don't expect a path beaten to your door, on the flip side if you don't like a price, don't buy it.... simple.
But please less of the aggressive (and sometimes personal verbal attacks on people) comments.

[Nictrix]

Sometimes people sell things at bargain prices. They may need the money quickly and cannot wait for someone to pay the current market price.
If someone buys at a bargain price (possibly helping the seller out by buying in the first place) why should they have to sell at a bargain price later on?
At the end of the day if the buyer is happy buying something that was bought cheaper previously then that is really all that should matter.
Nobody forces you to pay over the odds for anything.

[a340driver]

What's wrong with the current rules? If it's perceived as too expensive on this forum them so be it. Try to sell elsewhere. Offer what you thinks it's worth. I can't see a problem with people trying to make a profit. We could always go down the route of 100 posts before you can sell but what would that really achieve?

[dans6490]

What's wrong with the current rules? If it's perceived as too expensive on this forum them so be it. Try to sell elsewhere. Offer what you thinks it's worth. I can't see a problem with people trying to make a profit. We could always go down the route of 100 posts before you can sell but what would that really achieve?

The issue has arisen from a member who bought "E85 roof covers" as part of a forum group buy at a cost below the market value. He now is selling the items at a profit BUT below market value. This is against forum rules and members have commented as they feel it breaches the "profiteering" rule.

IMO this rule needs to be looked at as the item in question is a rare item that people on eBay are clearly willing to pay more than the item originally cost. Even though he's making a profit, it seems stupid that someone on this forum can't buy/sell the item at a cost that is lower than the market value. The dealers no longer sell these items so ebay is the only price you can use as a guide.

The more desirable accessories for these cars will only increase in value so presumably won't come up for sale on the forum unless someone is willing to sell them very cheaply.

[The Badger]

What's wrong with the current rules? If it's perceived as too expensive on this forum them so be it. Try to sell elsewhere. Offer what you thinks it's worth. I can't see a problem with people trying to make a profit. We could always go down the route of 100 posts before you can sell but what would that really achieve?

The issue has arisen from a member who bought "E85 roof covers" as part of a forum group buy at a cost below the market value. He now is selling the items at a profit BUT below market value. This is against forum rules and members have commented as they feel it breaches the "profiteering" rule.

IMO this rule needs to be looked at as the item in question is a rare item that people on eBay are clearly willing to pay more than the item originally cost. Even though he's making a profit, it seems stupid that someone on this forum can't buy/sell the item at a cost that is lower than the market value. The dealers no longer sell these items so ebay is the only price you can use as a guide.

The more desirable accessories for these cars will only increase in value so presumably won't come up for sale on the forum unless someone is willing to sell them very cheaply.

You are right it was me who seems to have opened this can of worms I saw no harm in my actions and clearly offered forum members a discount from my asking price which was as you state in the first place "below market value" however it would appear I've pissed some members off - sorry this was never my intention

[stevo///m3]

I remember typing out a long diatribe about this issue a few months back but decided against posting it in the end. I agree with the majority above - advertise and sell at whatever price you like. Whilst the comments should hopefully never resort to name-calling (maybe you could just ban a member from a particular thread if it got out of hand; disable posting for 24 hrs etc), most comment does seem to be sensible enough and sometimes focuses on price. Some members here will absolutely HAVE to sell stuff for more than what was paid for the item - especially some of the cars in a rare colour/spec etc. It's all out in the open, people DO cross-refer to other selling sites and research pays off - you don't have to buy anything here if you don't want to. On the other hand, you can buy and sell great stuff on this forum, so why should anyone be forced to sell a car through eBay? I understand that selling anything on here is a possibility graciously given by the mods and that could presumably be completely removed over time. And I know that there is general common sense applied - but the site does need to try to tackle this in my view. I'm on the side that asks for a clarification of the rules, not a wholesale re-write.
Stevo