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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Specific discussion about the E89 2009 Z4 (sDrive35is, sDrive35i, sDrive30i, sDrive23i)
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Tumnus
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by Tumnus » Fri May 12, 2017 1:48 pm

4zwmb wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 12:48 pm
Ewazix wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 8:25 am Opie Oils have a highly respected technical department that will answer customers questions via their website, they also have technical articles and 'myth busters' http://www.opieoils.co.uk/t-a-guide-to-oils.aspx

Using their oil finder for your specific car / location (Europe) the results are all LLO4 oils which, according to their article is the required spec for post 2004 BMW engines.
oil finder result for E89 3.0 http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-2354-lookup ... ilter=2011
Hi, thanks for this detail, I will check the links you have posted...I guess I cant use the oil I bought then. Its still a mystery to me why the LL-01 cannot be used in European countries as well though.
I would imagine most European countries now use low sulphur fuel, which would explain why they only recommend LL-04.
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by 4zwmb » Fri May 12, 2017 2:43 pm

Yes that is what I believe too but if LL-04 is to be used wit low sulfur fuel countries only and LL-01 with high sulfur fuels, why cant LL-01 be used with low sulfur fuels as well? This is the question here.

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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by Tumnus » Fri May 12, 2017 2:59 pm

4zwmb wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 2:43 pm Yes that is what I believe too but if LL-04 is to be used wit low sulfur fuel countries only and LL-01 with high sulfur fuels, why cant LL-01 be used with low sulfur fuels as well? This is the question here.
The sulphur acts as a lubricant, so I'm guessing that LL-04 has additives to compensate for the lack of sulphur. Using LL-01 in Europe could therefore increase engine wear.
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by 4zwmb » Fri May 12, 2017 3:13 pm

Oh this makes sense now. The way I saw it was that the less sulfur in the fuel, the better is the grade of the fuel and hence why I could not understand why in a less sulfur type of fuel, LL-01 is not permitted. I do understand now. :headbang: Got to go buy the LL-04 type because I am now fully convinced and I am afraid to choose the LL-01 type.

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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by 4zwmb » Fri May 12, 2017 3:16 pm

All this has made me think of something else now too...Does it mean that our engine oil mixes with the fuel at some point when the car is being used?

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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by Tumnus » Fri May 12, 2017 3:33 pm

There's more info here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... p?t=886017

It looks like the LL-04 was more important for cars with diesel particulate filters, LL-01 may be fine for petrol cars but personally I'd stick with what BMW recommend.
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by 4zwmb » Fri May 12, 2017 4:09 pm

Well bmw recommend both LL-01 and LL-04 but what I did not know was in which countries these two types of oils should be used. Apparently bmw does not recommend castrol anymore "Beginning in 2015, BMW is recommending Shell/Pennzoil PurePlus Oils as their aftermarket oil."

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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by Ewazix » Fri May 12, 2017 4:48 pm

4zwmb wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 3:16 pm All this has made me think of something else now too...Does it mean that our engine oil mixes with the fuel at some point when the car is being used?
The key cross-over between oil and fuel is the cylinder bore Vs Piston rings, ideally the rings run on a microscopic film of oil and there is minimal metal to metal contact. A problem was caused by low sulphur fuel spec's in Europe where the fuel caused the oil film to break down between bore and rings, causing accelerated ring wear, loss of compression and even bore wear. This worn interface can also allow combustion gases to chemically change and contaminate the oil, oil in this state is more likely to form film/plaque deposits which will accelerate wear on cams/lifters and shells.

Best to stick to LL04 on post 2004 engines in Europe per BMW advice :thumbsup:
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by flybobbie » Fri May 12, 2017 9:42 pm

Do direct injection engines wash the bore increasing wear compared to non direct injection engines?

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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by Smartbear » Fri May 12, 2017 9:55 pm

flybobbie wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 9:42 pm Do direct injection engines wash the bore increasing wear compared to non direct injection engines?
I don't see why that would happen? It's being injected directly into the part of the engine where it's most efficient :?
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by enzed4 » Sat May 13, 2017 12:34 am

Ewazix wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 4:48 pm
4zwmb wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 3:16 pm All this has made me think of something else now too...Does it mean that our engine oil mixes with the fuel at some point when the car is being used?
The key cross-over between oil and fuel is the cylinder bore Vs Piston rings, ideally the rings run on a microscopic film of oil and there is minimal metal to metal contact. A problem was caused by low sulphur fuel spec's in Europe where the fuel caused the oil film to break down between bore and rings, causing accelerated ring wear, loss of compression and even bore wear. This worn interface can also allow combustion gases to chemically change and contaminate the oil, oil in this state is more likely to form film/plaque deposits which will accelerate wear on cams/lifters and shells.

Best to stick to LL04 on post 2004 engines in Europe per BMW advice :thumbsup:
I'll amend my earlier comment about not making any difference whether you use LL-01/LL-04 as long as you change oil regularly, because a bit more research seems to indicate we run a higher sulfate fuel that you guys in the UK, so LL-01 is probably fine for me, but may not be the case for you. Here, LL-04 is more aimed at the diesels I think.
I'll quietly butt-out of this conversation now... :|
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by Ewazix » Sat May 13, 2017 9:38 am

enzed4 wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 12:34 am
Ewazix wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 4:48 pm
4zwmb wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 3:16 pm All this has made me think of something else now too...Does it mean that our engine oil mixes with the fuel at some point when the car is being used?
The key cross-over between oil and fuel is the cylinder bore Vs Piston rings, ideally the rings run on a microscopic film of oil and there is minimal metal to metal contact. A problem was caused by low sulphur fuel spec's in Europe where the fuel caused the oil film to break down between bore and rings, causing accelerated ring wear, loss of compression and even bore wear. This worn interface can also allow combustion gases to chemically change and contaminate the oil, oil in this state is more likely to form film/plaque deposits which will accelerate wear on cams/lifters and shells.

Best to stick to LL04 on post 2004 engines in Europe per BMW advice :thumbsup:
I'll amend my earlier comment about not making any difference whether you use LL-01/LL-04 as long as you change oil regularly, because a bit more research seems to indicate we run a higher sulfate fuel that you guys in the UK, so LL-01 is probably fine for me, but may not be the case for you. Here, LL-04 is more aimed at the diesels I think.
I'll quietly butt-out of this conversation now... :|
Yes having checked it out there is mass confusion out there caused by the LL01 / LL04 requirement varying by region and fuel quality. Just to clarify another point it also seems that any engine designated to use LL01 (in that region) can use LL04 which is backward compatible to LL01.

But for those of us with also run other older pre 1992 cars which specified pre-LL01 oils (synth' / mineral hybrid oils or mineral oils) then DON'T use LL01/04 or other fully synthetic oils thinking fully synth' will be 'better', as these are not compatible with seals etc in those older engines and will cause excessive oil consumption, wear and damage to seals.
http://www.aaoil.co.uk/files/4714/4828/ ... ressed.pdf

I guess the golden rule is to go by the book (in your car) :thumbsup:
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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by 4zwmb » Sat May 13, 2017 10:10 am

Mass confusion and half of it coming from me! Yes I agree that probably the best bet is to go by the book of the car. But the manual does specify both LL-01 and LL-04 as being suitable, however on the manual it says nothing about in which country to use one or the other and that is very confusing. In fact I got to know about this whole idea of these two oil types from the net.

I have contacted Opie Oils with this issue and they replied to me a couple of hours later. They said I can use both LL-01 and LL-04 regardless where I live. So as you can see there are mixed opinions and not one final truth.

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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by flybobbie » Sat May 13, 2017 7:47 pm

Smartbear wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 9:55 pm
flybobbie wrote: Fri May 12, 2017 9:42 pm Do direct injection engines wash the bore increasing wear compared to non direct injection engines?
I don't see why that would happen? It's being injected directly into the part of the engine where it's most efficient :?
Rob
Well lets say if I wanted to clean a bore what better way than spraying fuel down it.
At least with indirect injection as per the lower engine models the fuel has a chance to swirl around.http://ac.els-cdn.com/S187661021631445X ... c8f2768b1d
Interesting read.

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Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

Post by 4zwmb » Sun May 14, 2017 9:27 am

Have a quick look guys and tell me which part confused you more!? Wtf, LL-04 only for diesel engines?

https://www.oildepot.ca/bmw-motor-oil-s ... explained/

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