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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Specific discussion about the E89 2009 Z4 (sDrive35is, sDrive35i, sDrive30i, sDrive23i)
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Valor1
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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Valor1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:43 pm

Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:50 am I would guess you've reduced your acceleration by raising the gearing of your car, those big wheels look to have a greater rolling radius than standard wheels. Tell us what profiles you're running?
Rob
Actually, no as my wheels and tires weigh significantly less than the OEM set up. Less power is required to rotate a lower mass, or put another way, it is easier to rotate a lower mass than a heavier mass. My wheels and tires reduce rotating weight by 22 pounds compared to stock wheels and tires and as such are easier to rotate. Also, with a properly tuned N54 motor, which makes 400 hp or more, the issue is further reduced as a concern.

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Valor1
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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Valor1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:54 pm

sunnydays wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:53 am Wow OP that is a nice colour combination. Is that melbourne red and a beige interior? Manual too? Must not be many of those around in 35i form
Thank you! No, it's actually crimson red and in this configuration zero were sold in Europe and only 28 globally, including automatic and manual gearbox cars. Probably only 3, give or take, ever produced in this color combination with the N54 motor and a manual gearbox. :driving:

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Valor1
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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Valor1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:06 pm

[/quote]
One HUGE disadvantage you have stated "less weight per cubic centimetre riding on the larger tires" With more rubber on the road their is as you correctly state less pressure on the tyre'. As a result you have poorer grip especially in wet or damp conditions where the tyres dynamics rely on the weight of the vehicle to push it down through the water film and contact the road.
When tyres/wheels are selected by a manufacturer they are done by very skilled engineers, tyre specialists, and computers. They also use feedback from their race teams.
So, they probably know best, best left alone, safety before aesthetics.......

[/quote]

You are joking right? You think cars leave BMW optimized? Or do you think they are sold with cost considerations as a major factor? Lightweight forged wheels cost a lot more than cast wheels and premium tires cost more than other tires.

With the Z4 your comment is really ironic. Every review I've read about the Z4 with the 19" wheels and Run Flat Tires all commented on how harsh the car rode.

BMW was even sued because their 19" wheels were cracking!!! Why? Poor selection of tires! The fun flats in the size BMW elected to use causes an excessively harsh ride and a ride so harsh that it can lead to wheels cracking!

I learned this first hand. When I bought my Z4 I was shocked at how crappy the ride was. As anyone will atest to, replacing the OEM RFT with non-RFT quality tires transforms the Z4's ride. So you want to tell me how the Z4 came optimized from the factory??? Sorry, BMW really screwed this one up. Had they fit a proper set of wheels and tires the Z4 would have been reviewed more favorably.

Moreover, fitting larger wheels and tires is standard in the performance world because you can lower weight, improve dynamics (handling and braking, etc). Every higher performance version has bigger wheels and tires. BMW does it with their cars, Porsche, GM (Corvette, Camaro, etc) Ford (Mustang), etc.

If what you say is true there would be no need for the Tuner world (AMG, Alpina, RennTech, Ruf, Dinan, etc.)

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by R.E92 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:19 pm

Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:49 pm
R.E92 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:35 am
mcbutler wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:08 am One HUGE disadvantage you have stated "less weight per cubic centimetre riding on the larger tires" With more rubber on the road their is as you correctly state less pressure on the tyre'. As a result you have poorer grip especially in wet or damp conditions where the tyres dynamics rely on the weight of the vehicle to push it down through the water film and contact the road.
When tyres/wheels are selected by a manufacturer they are done by very skilled engineers, tyre specialists, and computers. They also use feedback from their race teams.
So, they probably know best, best left alone, safety before aesthetics.......

Oh, and make sure you tell your insurer as you have modified the cars handling......
I don't think any race team feeds back information regarding optimal tyre size for a road car, two completely different applications.

Cars often have multiple tyre setups depending on spec. The 3 series for example has optional staggered wheels which come with the M Sport kit. The efficient dynamics cars come with smaller sizes again to reduce fuel consumption.

The tyres are the Z4 aren't selected solely for performance, they also take fuel consumption and road noise into consideration. Putting wider tyres on the Z4 will improve traction but will also increase fuel use and road noise into the cabin.
Compared to the OEM Bridgestone Run Flat tires this set up, using the best all around tire on the market, the new Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (which replaces the Super Sport) this set up transforms the harsh riding 19" OEM set up into a much smoother and quiter ride. It is very similar to my SL600 in terms of ride comfort.

In addition, tire width is not the only factor in fuel economy.....as if fuel economy was the paramount concern for a sports car. Tire compounds are a significant factor in rolling resistance and these new Michelin tires are the latest tech on the market. I would gladly trade an mpg or two for this setup over the OEM set up.

As for how the Manufacturer equips their cars the fact is cost and marketing factor in. You can take the same BMW chassis and offer it as an economy car or an M tuned car and you'll note a dramatic difference in tires fit to the same basic vehicle architecture. The fact is COST is a huge player in any manufacturer's decision in how to equip a chassis for the market.
I'm not disagreeing with the tyre choice. I have the same and found my MPG increased, noise lowered and grip improved when moving from MPSS to MPS4S. They are a great tyre.

MPG is not really a concern for me either but it's a nice bonus.

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Smartbear » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm

Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:43 pm
Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:50 am I would guess you've reduced your acceleration by raising the gearing of your car, those big wheels look to have a greater rolling radius than standard wheels. Tell us what profiles you're running?
Rob
Actually, no as my wheels and tires weigh significantly less than the OEM set up. Less power is required to rotate a lower mass, or put another way, it is easier to rotate a lower mass than a heavier mass. My wheels and tires reduce rotating weight by 22 pounds compared to stock wheels and tires and as such are easier to rotate. Also, with a properly tuned N54 motor, which makes 400 hp or more, the issue is further reduced as a concern.
So what profile rear tyres are you using, as your reasoning only takes into account half of the relevant data?
Rob
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e89 Sdrive 20i, plenty of mumbo & good economy-the thinking bears z4
e89 Sdrive 30i, this ones busted, pass me another...
e85 3.0si sold

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Nictrix
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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Nictrix » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:47 pm

Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm
Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:43 pm
Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:50 am I would guess you've reduced your acceleration by raising the gearing of your car, those big wheels look to have a greater rolling radius than standard wheels. Tell us what profiles you're running?
Rob
Actually, no as my wheels and tires weigh significantly less than the OEM set up. Less power is required to rotate a lower mass, or put another way, it is easier to rotate a lower mass than a heavier mass. My wheels and tires reduce rotating weight by 22 pounds compared to stock wheels and tires and as such are easier to rotate. Also, with a properly tuned N54 motor, which makes 400 hp or more, the issue is further reduced as a concern.
So what profile rear tyres are you using, as your reasoning only takes into account half of the relevant data?
Rob
Does the fact that the wheels are a lot lighter and easier to rotate not mean that they will spin easier under power?
E89 2014 35i M Sport Black with Black leather :)

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Valor1
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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Valor1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:51 pm

mcbutler wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:47 am
R.E92 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:35 am
mcbutler wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:08 am One HUGE disadvantage you have stated "less weight per cubic centimetre riding on the larger tires" With more rubber on the road their is as you correctly state less pressure on the tyre'. As a result you have poorer grip especially in wet or damp conditions where the tyres dynamics rely on the weight of the vehicle to push it down through the water film and contact the road.
When tyres/wheels are selected by a manufacturer they are done by very skilled engineers, tyre specialists, and computers. They also use feedback from their race teams.
So, they probably know best, best left alone, safety before aesthetics.......

Oh, and make sure you tell your insurer as you have modified the cars handling......
I don't think any race team feeds back information regarding optimal tyre size for a road car, two completely different applications.

Cars often have multiple tyre setups depending on spec. The 3 series for example has optional staggered wheels which come with the M Sport kit. The efficient dynamics cars come with smaller sizes again to reduce fuel consumption.

The tyres are the Z4 aren't selected solely for performance, they also take fuel consumption and road noise into consideration. Putting wider tyres on the Z4 will improve traction but will also increase fuel use and road noise into the cabin.
I can guarantee you that race teams feedback into road car development, why do you think they race to win? It showcases the manufacturers technologies and abilities, M series cars are very race orientated.
Yes cars often have staggered setups AS DESIGNED AND TESTED BY PROFESSIONALS.
All tyres are selected SOLELY for performance, you seem to think that it is only grip that is relative to tyre performance, it includes noise - economy - comfort - grip - braking wet/dry - cornering - acceleration.
Have a read of this website giving the views of professionals in the matter https://www.driving.co.uk/car-clinic/wh ... -your-car/
Sorry, this is just too silly to waste time on. I know engineers who work at mainstream manufacturers and who work for exotic car manufacturers. This will come as a great surprise to you: Bean counters at major manufacturers are not putting the best possible gear in your car. Do you see a carbon fiber driveshaft? Carbon ceramic brakes? Forged or carbon fiber wheels? A carbon fiber tub? Heck, the Z4 has uber cheap brakes in it and just about the worst possible tires with the RFT and you want to tell me this car can't benefit from a forged wheels and maximum performance tires? Wow. Okay. Check please!

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Valor1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:57 pm

Nictrix wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:47 pm
Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm
Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:43 pm

Actually, no as my wheels and tires weigh significantly less than the OEM set up. Less power is required to rotate a lower mass, or put another way, it is easier to rotate a lower mass than a heavier mass. My wheels and tires reduce rotating weight by 22 pounds compared to stock wheels and tires and as such are easier to rotate. Also, with a properly tuned N54 motor, which makes 400 hp or more, the issue is further reduced as a concern.
So what profile rear tyres are you using, as your reasoning only takes into account half of the relevant data?
Rob
Does the fact that the wheels are a lot lighter and easier to rotate not mean that they will spin easier under power?
Well, let's just say the Pagani BC and Koenigsegg I saw this weekend....and Jay Leno's Ford GT I saw a couple of weeks ago, all have carbon fiber wheels. Koenigsegg states their carbon wheels save nearly 20kg of weight. (My forged wheels are saving about 10Kg). I'll let folks here do the math and exercise common sense.

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Valor1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:59 pm

Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:57 pm
Nictrix wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:47 pm
Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm

So what profile rear tyres are you using, as your reasoning only takes into account half of the relevant data?
Rob
Does the fact that the wheels are a lot lighter and easier to rotate not mean that they will spin easier under power?
Well, let's just say the Pagani BC and Koenigsegg I saw this weekend....and Jay Leno's Ford GT I saw a couple of weeks ago, all have carbon fiber wheels. Koenigsegg states their carbon wheels save nearly 20kg of weight. (My forged wheels are saving about 10Kg). Less mass is easier to "spin" while larger tires with better traction will grip better. So yes, they will spin faster while these tires will have much more grip.

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Smartbear » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:05 pm

Nictrix wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:47 pm
Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm
Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:43 pm

Actually, no as my wheels and tires weigh significantly less than the OEM set up. Less power is required to rotate a lower mass, or put another way, it is easier to rotate a lower mass than a heavier mass. My wheels and tires reduce rotating weight by 22 pounds compared to stock wheels and tires and as such are easier to rotate. Also, with a properly tuned N54 motor, which makes 400 hp or more, the issue is further reduced as a concern.
So what profile rear tyres are you using, as your reasoning only takes into account half of the relevant data?
Rob

Does the fact that the wheels are a lot lighter and easier to rotate not mean that they will spin easier under power?
If nothing else was changed I would agree, however the op hasn't revealed which tyre profile he's using on the rear & I suspect his tyre choice has raised the car's gearing which would have the effect of reducing the car's acceleration, or at least negating some of the gains that would have been made switching to lighter wheels & retaining the car's original gearing....
Rob
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e89 Sdrive 20i, plenty of mumbo & good economy-the thinking bears z4
e89 Sdrive 30i, this ones busted, pass me another...
e85 3.0si sold

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Nictrix » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:14 pm

Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:57 pm
Nictrix wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:47 pm
Smartbear wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm

So what profile rear tyres are you using, as your reasoning only takes into account half of the relevant data?
Rob
Does the fact that the wheels are a lot lighter and easier to rotate not mean that they will spin easier under power?
Well, let's just say the Pagani BC and Koenigsegg I saw this weekend....and Jay Leno's Ford GT I saw a couple of weeks ago, all have carbon fiber wheels. Koenigsegg states their carbon wheels save nearly 20kg of weight. (My forged wheels are saving about 10Kg). I'll let folks here do the math and exercise common sense.
Big difference between all those cars and a Z, all of those have the weight of the engine over the rear wheels keeping it down.
E89 2014 35i M Sport Black with Black leather :)

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by sunnydays » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:48 pm

Valor1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:51 pm
mcbutler wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:47 am
R.E92 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:35 am

I don't think any race team feeds back information regarding optimal tyre size for a road car, two completely different applications.

Cars often have multiple tyre setups depending on spec. The 3 series for example has optional staggered wheels which come with the M Sport kit. The efficient dynamics cars come with smaller sizes again to reduce fuel consumption.

The tyres are the Z4 aren't selected solely for performance, they also take fuel consumption and road noise into consideration. Putting wider tyres on the Z4 will improve traction but will also increase fuel use and road noise into the cabin.
I can guarantee you that race teams feedback into road car development, why do you think they race to win? It showcases the manufacturers technologies and abilities, M series cars are very race orientated.
Yes cars often have staggered setups AS DESIGNED AND TESTED BY PROFESSIONALS.
All tyres are selected SOLELY for performance, you seem to think that it is only grip that is relative to tyre performance, it includes noise - economy - comfort - grip - braking wet/dry - cornering - acceleration.
Have a read of this website giving the views of professionals in the matter https://www.driving.co.uk/car-clinic/wh ... -your-car/
Sorry, this is just too silly to waste time on. I know engineers who work at mainstream manufacturers and who work for exotic car manufacturers. This will come as a great surprise to you: Bean counters at major manufacturers are not putting the best possible gear in your car. Do you see a carbon fiber driveshaft? Carbon ceramic brakes? Forged or carbon fiber wheels? A carbon fiber tub? Heck, the Z4 has uber cheap brakes in it and just about the worst possible tires with the RFT and you want to tell me this car can't benefit from a forged wheels and maximum performance tires? Wow. Okay. Check please!
Agree to an extent but remember every car has its market. The reason this car has rfts is so it didnt destroy the last gen Z4M in reviews. The E89 is a GT cruiser not a track car or a super car.

Remember these cars are designed from the ground up, with certain compromises in mind. Cars like the Huayra and Zonda are no compromise all performance cars that are developed and built to take advantage of every last aspect of the car such as the wider tyres and contact patch playing through the suspension.

While lighter alloys and wider tyres should be better, if the car can not take advantage of these due to its inherant design then it acheives nothing.

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Valor1 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:36 pm

A few more pics of 19" front 20" rear.
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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by Ducklakeview » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:16 pm

sunnydays wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:53 am Wow OP that is a nice colour combination. Is that melbourne red and a beige interior? Manual too? Must not be many of those around in 35i form
Don't start that again, please :)

Nice wheels BTW OP..

Mike

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Staggered 19" front 20" rear with 255mm and 285mm Pilot Sport 4S

Post by MrPT » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:32 pm

SteveSmith wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:51 am What tyre profiles?
+1

Rear looks lower profile than the front. I guess with staggered diameter wheels you lose the ability to have a fatter rear for comfort (as per recent Porsches) and still keep things ok, visually.

They look pretty good though, OP. Your weather helps. :D
2008 Z4MC: heavy wheels | crap suspension | skittish rear end | wobbly engine | not enough induction noise | underwhelming turn in | inconsistent braking | lardy battery | chubby steering wheel
2006 Z4 2.5si: gone

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