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Timing chain issue ?

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Cooky3
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Cooky3 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:11 pm

Hi Smartbear.

I mentioned this to him again today and he is going to do that tomorrow because I have asked him too again but he is adamant this won't make a difference. If it does it will be an interesting conversation!!!

This guy worked for BMW back in the day and used to work on the a c schnitzer cars too. Difficult for a technical div like me to give him advice.... He has already been through the oil filter housing for instance because I asked him too based on feedback here... No issues found...

Nightmare..... :thumbsdown:
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Ducklakeview
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Ducklakeview » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:11 pm

Ok..

So I assume the tool he will be borrowing will be something like my Steelman Chassis Ears? I used them to diagnose which lifers were noisy on Jamie_z4's friends 3.0Si when I was doing a diagnostic on it for the noise.

TBH, if he's only "reaching" out for that sort of specialist listening equipment at this late stage, having already replaced parts and not cured it, I'm afraid I would be questioning his ability to ever identify and fix whatever is causing the issue..

Just my 2p..

Mike

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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Ducklakeview » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:14 pm

Cooky3 wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:11 pm Hi Smartbear.

I mentioned this to him again today and he is going to do that tomorrow because I have asked him too again but he is adamant this won't make a difference. If it does it will be an interesting conversation!!!

This guy worked for BMW back in the day and used to work on the a c schnitzer cars too. Difficult for a technical div like me to give him advice.... He has already been through the oil filter housing for instance because I asked him too based on feedback here... No issues found...

Nightmare..... :thumbsdown:
And THIS ^^^^ I would consider one of the first things to check when getting a strange noise/vibration that is only present at specific loads/speed - Harmonics in rotating components can cause all sorts of anomalies, so it's good diagnostic procedure to eliminate them as the cause early on.

Mike

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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Cooky3 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:45 pm

Cheers ducklakeview.

I know what you are saying. Already ingrained in it. I think they have reasonably good knowledge but I am lost.

Any ideas on holding the revs and no noise cold / then noise when warmed up?
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Ducklakeview » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:52 pm

Cooky3 wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:45 pm Cheers ducklakeview.

I know what you are saying. Already ingrained in it. I think they have reasonably good knowledge but I am lost.

Any ideas on holding the revs and no noise cold / then noise when warmed up?
James rang me the other night about it, to be honest I wouldn't want to guess without hearing it first hand..

Mike

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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Cooky3 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:00 pm

Fair enough matey.

Everyone who HAS heard it said timing chain guides....

NOT!

Will keep you all posted. Pleased it's not costing me stamps every time I post something. Can't afford them as well...
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by ph001 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:50 pm

Both vanos timing and valve lift are adjusted with engine temperature so maybe not entirely surprising, even though I know you say they have checked these two areas.

I really feel for you, these things can be incredibly frustrating. I wouldn't give up though as you must be very close to nailing this.
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by jnwright71 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:07 am

Hi Justin / All,

My two penneth. There was plastic in the oil, it shouldn’t have been there, so the guides MUST have been an issue. They have been replaced, but the noise has not gone. So, either the guides were an issue but not causing any noise and by coincidence they have been found to be failing or the chain catching, although the garage is adamanent the old ones were perfect, or this issue isn’t resolved.

Learned folks, what about;

- VANOS hub. Oil pressure related I know, but what if .... (this was the other thing the original master tech suggested)
- Tensioner. I don’t believe this was replaced again with the chain and guides, although was just before. As this is oil pressure driven, I assume it can reset itself if it has run at its widest setting, but is this the case ?


Justin,

Did Colin check oil pressure car v car when the noise was apparent ? I’ve read the demand on the oil pump is highest just above tick over when the VANOS system creates its highest demand. If the strainer/pick up is slightly blocked, then low revs would be the area in which the pump may but be able to deliver sufficient oil pressure. He says yours was slightly lower, but what is slightly, and is slightly enough to cause this ?

I still believe, based on what we now know, this is chain tension related and oil pressure at certain rev ranges may be the issue. I don’t know what is an acceptable oil pressure for this engine, but Colin must be able to find this out.

Let’s hope he finds something tomorrow and whilst it would be good news, I really hope we haven’t been through this pain for a belt tensioner or pulley, something I know you have asked him to look at since Day 1!

James
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Z4M-2006 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:06 am

So..

Are we saying there was plastic in the sump but this was NOT from the chain guides?

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Timing chain issue ?

Post by ph001 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:13 am

The other thing that definitely does change speed considerably when the engine is warm is the water pump. Obviously no way that can be related to plastic in the oil, but the pump runs at quite a low speed until the engine reaches a certain temperature then does a step change to a much higher speed, although it doesn't correlate very well with revs so it's a bit of a stab in the dark really.

I would have thought the listening gear directly on the pump would confirm / and or pull the electrical connector off briefly when it's rattling to see if it disappears. An easy, cheap test that can be done just to continue eliminating things.
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Vegas » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:08 pm

Hi Cooky3.

I have been reading this thread daily pal hoping you can get it sorted.

I have no advice unfortunately, just a bit of positive energy and the crossing of fingers . :thumbsup:
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by jnwright71 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:21 pm

Hi Z4M-2006,

The garage is saying the plastic in the sump doesn’t appear to have come from the guides which are, in his opinion, unmarked. Every specialist I’ve spoken to says this is impossible, as the only way for plastic to get into the oil is from the chain guides (no other plastic internally anywhere near the oil circuit).

Hi ph001,

The car had a brand new WP and thermostat just over 12 months (1,500 miles) ago and is virtually silent in operation.

Hopefully Cooks will be along soon to provide an update.

Thx
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Smartbear » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:42 pm

jnwright71 wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:21 pm Hi Z4M-2006,

The garage is saying the plastic in the sump doesn’t appear to have come from the guides which are, in his opinion, unmarked. Every specialist I’ve spoken to says this is impossible, as the only way for plastic to get into the oil is from the chain guides (no other plastic internally anywhere near the oil circuit).

Hi ph001,

The car had a brand new WP and thermostat just over 12 months (1,500 miles) ago and is virtually silent in operation.

Hopefully Cooks will be along soon to provide an update.

Thx
Being an n52 engine I wonder if the electronic dipstick sensor in the sump has any plastic parts that could have broken up in the sump?
Rob
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Cooky3
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Cooky3 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:57 pm

Cheers Vegas and others...

No update today. Guy is snowed under and I have said he can fit it in when it suits so didn't bother troubling him today.

Re. Plastic guides, to clarify Colin has said there is no apparent wear as in excessive wear. The old guides have wear in line with an 11 year old car with 60,000 miles. He has put the guides and chain to one side for me to have back. I may collect them at the weekend as over that way.

I did speak to a master tech today who suggested disconnecting the air mass sensor thingy which will isolate the variable valve timing or something which would hopefully rule that out. This guy heard the noise first hand on the way to where I took it. He thought it sounded like timing chain / guide issues but also today suggested he thought it would be a nightmare to diagnose which is why he didn't want to take the job on...

Still very much gutted by it all. But what can I do about it. Nothing personally as I have no knowledge... Bullet proof these engines..... Apparently! :(
I ain't fallin for no banana in my tail-pipe!
Jester's dead!

Cooky3
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Timing chain issue ?

Post by Cooky3 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:13 pm

Forgot to say. The master tech I spoke to today said my engine pressure is about where it should be. Assume he knows... Suggests the oil pump and strainer / pick up pipe are all ok...
I ain't fallin for no banana in my tail-pipe!
Jester's dead!

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