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To sue or not to sue... Updated result

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To sue or not to sue

Accept their offer
10
23%
Take BMW UK to court
34
77%
 
Total votes: 44

Scooba_Steve
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To sue or not to sue

Post by Scooba_Steve » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:11 pm

The small claims track is easy and painless. They use goodwill so as not to admit liability but you can try to counter that if you wish.
Their defense that the roof isn't covered is easy to dispute as above. If they try and use the defense that damage has cause it you may need to find an expert witness.
Depending on your correspondence so far I would write to the managing director explaining and that you are considering legal action. If that fails then a final letter outlining your demands with time to respond before issuing the claim. I charge for correspondence costs and add on any travel for inspections. Depending on how long you have had the car it may be worth perusing the seller (if trade) as well for it not being fit for purpose.
Once a claim arrived at bmw I would expect them to settle for the full amount as it's not worth sending anyone from legal to defend and a loss would set a precedent. Can't bank on it though.
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To sue or not to sue

Post by Angie4m » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:25 pm

85genius wrote:
markplant wrote:Would that mean that the doors, bonnet and boot aren't covered, an haven't coupes had boot issues done under warranty
Exactly! They are taking the piss
I think what they then might argue is that as the roof is in two pieces with a rubber seal inbetween that possibly water may have leaked into the panel and caused the corrosion from the inside. BMW do not cover seals and I would therefore think that any metal part that requires the seal to stop water ingress and subsequently doesn't have any drain holes may well be excluded but if that is the case then BMW need to state that both in this instance and going forward.

Personally I'd take the offer of £700. It's a ballache but at least when it's done if there is any issues you will have a two year warranty from BMW. Then after you could persue them for breach of T&Cs.

Possibly also ask them to keep the pannels and have you view them to assertain if it has been caused by water inside or if it has been a paint bonding issue as Sars has mentioned. If it was the latter I think you would have good grounds to speak with BMW again before any money has changed hands.
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To sue or not to sue

Post by jimmybell » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:34 pm

Scooba_Steve wrote: Once a claim arrived at bmw I would expect them to settle for the full amount as it's not worth sending anyone from legal to defend and a loss would set a precedent. Can't bank on it though.
+1 - i'd be surprised if they didn't attempt to settle the full amount - it's not worth the £700 to try and fight it.
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Post by 85genius » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:40 pm

In fact, after some good points made by Angie4m and sars I would possibly do this a slightly different way.

Its not a choice of weather to accept the goodwill gesture or sue them as you can in fact do both!

Take them up on the offer and make it well known to them you are doing it grudgingly and do not at any point waive your right to pursue a claim, if you dont make out that you are considering it then they will be very unlikely to ask you to.

Tell them that you want to keep the old panels to inspect if you are having to pay for the repair.

Get the repair done, pay your £700 collect the old panels and then get them examined by a paint expert. If they say it is related to the finishing of the panels and specifically not your misuse then you can go back to BMW to try and get a refund of your £700+ costs getting the panels checked... If they refuse at this point its then time to sue
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Post by JAD » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:46 pm

I mentioned this in your other thread, but the threat of going to the motoring press (who would have a field day with this) worked for my father when Audi's "final offer" was similar when his aluminium R8 bonnet rusted and bubbled...

Simple threat of seeing what they have to say about your experience may shift their response...

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Post by Ducklakeview » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:07 pm

85genius wrote:In fact, after some good points made by Angie4m and sars I would possibly do this a slightly different way.

Its not a choice of weather to accept the goodwill gesture or sue them as you can in fact do both!

Take them up on the offer and make it well known to them you are doing it grudgingly and do not at any point waive your right to pursue a claim, if you dont make out that you are considering it then they will be very unlikely to ask you to.

Tell them that you want to keep the old panels to inspect if you are having to pay for the repair.

Get the repair done, pay your £700 collect the old panels and then get them examined by a paint expert. If they say it is related to the finishing of the panels and specifically not your misuse then you can go back to BMW to try and get a refund of your £700+ costs getting the panels checked... If they refuse at this point its then time to sue
Good course of action to take, means you can get the repair done and argue the toss later..

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Post by Pastry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:11 pm

sars wrote:Sorry to hear about your troubles, have you been advised that there is corrosion of the Aluminium under the paint? Pure aluminium self passivates in air, an alloy of Aluminium may not but is dependent on grade, which we have no idea of. Even so, I would find it unlikely that it has without prior damage to the paint (stone chip etcetera). Why I say this is that it may not be a corrosion issue rather a paint bonding issue which may help your cause, however you would need to seek professional advise/analysis from a paint specialist.
There is no damage to the external paint and the roof has blistered in 3 places involving both roof panels. I really don't think BMW are interested what caused it, they are just excluding the roof panels full stop :thumbsdown:
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Post by EdButler » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:14 pm

You paying BMW £700 is effectively paying for it all, albeit at cost price. As said before, get another quote before committing and if the difference is minimal, go for it. They have effectively already admitted fault but are trying to pull a fast one.

Make sure that if you take the offer AND want to sue, that you don't commit to anything 'final'. I wont pretend to know about such laws however so its worth a read up.

End of the day its your time/stress and use your gut. Just bear in mind, 50% of those who propose 'sue' would probably not do so themselves in the same situation!

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To sue or not to sue

Post by Pastry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:16 pm

Scooba_Steve wrote:The small claims track is easy and painless. They use goodwill so as not to admit liability but you can try to counter that if you wish.
Their defense that the roof isn't covered is easy to dispute as above. If they try and use the defense that damage has cause it you may need to find an expert witness.
Depending on your correspondence so far I would write to the managing director explaining and that you are considering legal action. If that fails then a final letter outlining your demands with time to respond before issuing the claim. I charge for correspondence costs and add on any travel for inspections. Depending on how long you have had the car it may be worth perusing the seller (if trade) as well for it not being fit for purpose.
Once a claim arrived at bmw I would expect them to settle for the full amount as it's not worth sending anyone from legal to defend and a loss would set a precedent. Can't bank on it though.
There has never been a dispute about paint damage, the BMW technician was happy that the corrosion was internal and the roof paint was original. I have spoken to dealership then on to BMW Uk who have made their position clear that their current offer is final. I have responded by informing them that as I'm on holiday, I reserve judgement until I return home and speak to trading standards again and take legal advice about taking them to court :thumbsdown:
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Post by Pastry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:19 pm

JAD wrote:I mentioned this in your other thread, but the threat of going to the motoring press (who would have a field day with this) worked for my father when Audi's "final offer" was similar when his aluminium R8 bonnet rusted and bubbled...

Simple threat of seeing what they have to say about your experience may shift their response...
I am pursuing this and have already mentioned it to BMW but they weren't bothered. Im still going to though :thumbsup:
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Post by 85genius » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:20 pm

Ducklakeview wrote:
85genius wrote:In fact, after some good points made by Angie4m and sars I would possibly do this a slightly different way.

Its not a choice of weather to accept the goodwill gesture or sue them as you can in fact do both!

Take them up on the offer and make it well known to them you are doing it grudgingly and do not at any point waive your right to pursue a claim, if you dont make out that you are considering it then they will be very unlikely to ask you to.

Tell them that you want to keep the old panels to inspect if you are having to pay for the repair.

Get the repair done, pay your £700 collect the old panels and then get them examined by a paint expert. If they say it is related to the finishing of the panels and specifically not your misuse then you can go back to BMW to try and get a refund of your £700+ costs getting the panels checked... If they refuse at this point its then time to sue
Good course of action to take, means you can get the repair done and argue the toss later..

Mike
And I just thought but doing it this way also means that you are only suing for £700 instead of over £3000 which gives a twofold benefit to you when you finally come to sue....

Firstly they are much more likely to just accept a claim for £700 than they are a claim for £3k+ at £700 it really is not worth them fighting it.

Also the court fees (you have to pay in advance with MCOL but get them back from the defendant when you win) are also reduced £70 for a claim under £1000 compared to £185 for a claim over that...

So this is my advice pay the £700 then sue them for it later! Judging from what you have said there is probably no need for you to get the panels off them but if for some reason they decide it might be worth fighting it would be nice to take them into court with you! Even if not if you go in armed with the warranty documents loads of photos and all the correspondence between you and the dealer and BMWUK I cant see how you can lose, and even if you do lose you only lose £70 and a bit of your time.
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Post by 85genius » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:26 pm

Just had another thought and pretty much convinced myself they will settle when you sue for £700 it comes down to this....

There is a very good chance they will lose, they may win but I honestly think they don't want to set a legal precedent against their warranty as if they settle at the £700 with you they can go on refusing others claims whereas if you win in court they have to pay out everyone with a similar claim.

Its not worth the risk of you winning to them it could [potentially cost them much much more than your claim!
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Post by Pastry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:26 pm

Angie4m wrote:
85genius wrote:
markplant wrote:Would that mean that the doors, bonnet and boot aren't covered, an haven't coupes had boot issues done under warranty
Exactly! They are taking the piss
I think what they then might argue is that as the roof is in two pieces with a rubber seal inbetween that possibly water may have leaked into the panel and caused the corrosion from the inside. BMW do not cover seals and I would therefore think that any metal part that requires the seal to stop water ingress and subsequently doesn't have any drain holes may well be excluded but if that is the case then BMW need to state that both in this instance and going forward.

Personally I'd take the offer of £700. It's a ballache but at least when it's done if there is any issues you will have a two year warranty from BMW. Then after you could persue them for breach of T&Cs.

Possibly also ask them to keep the pannels and have you view them to assertain if it has been caused by water inside or if it has been a paint bonding issue as Sars has mentioned. If it was the latter I think you would have good grounds to speak with BMW again before any money has changed hands.
I think you've got some very good points there. Both roof panels are corroded at the front edge, 1 patch on the front panel and 2 smaller patches on the rear roof panel. They know I am extremely unhappy and I've thrown pretty much everything at them apart from the kitchen sink so I would be surprised if their offer doesn't have a 'full and final settlement' attached to it! If Im honest I would settle for £300 or £400 but getting bullied out of £710 is making it hard to stomach!
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To sue or not to sue

Post by Scooba_Steve » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:28 pm

Do you have that from the BMW tech in writing?

While I think accepting the goodwill and suing after would be effective (as there is only £700 to dispute) I believe you'd have to dispute the amount when paying and in doing so BMW may not carry out the work. I suppose you could pay under protest?

You will still have to write to BMW before you submit a claim. An extra letter to the MD is a worthwhile final attempt to genuinely resolve the dispute and can only count in your favour.
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Post by Pastry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:35 pm

85genius wrote:Just had another thought and pretty much convinced myself they will settle when you sue for £700 it comes down to this....

There is a very good chance they will lose, they may win but I honestly think they don't want to set a legal precedent against their warranty as if they settle at the £700 with you they can go on refusing others claims whereas if you win in court they have to pay out everyone with a similar claim.

Its not worth the risk of you winning to them it could [potentially cost them much much more than your claim!
I hadn't thought of the repercussions for them, they have a lot more to lose than me!
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