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Angelus666
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Post by Angelus666 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:35 am

DLH wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:I'm struggling with some of this....so, apparently he was 'known' to MI5...so we must presume he's on their watch list, but yet he drive from Birmingham into the city of London (the most CCTV'd place on the planet)...come towards Parliament (surely that should have triggered alarms)...mow down some people, then approach parliament on foot, stab a police officer before he's finally dealt with.

Shouldn't he be pulled over once he enters London and questioned over why he is there??!

What the f**k are our intelligence agencies actually doing....??!
WAS is the key here, in that the last time he committed an offence was more than ten years ago and there are >3000 people on the watch list and they can't all be kept under surveillance 24/7! Surely, you don't believe that CCTV will identify someone like this when he's inside a hire car within a matter of minutes? FFS!
Ha, I work within the tech industry and even luxury retailers have the facial recognition tech to know when a repeat/good customer comes back into store within 5 seconds.....so it must stand to reason the intelligence agencies have the technology to know when a 'known' person is entering an environment that he shouldn't normally be in (even in a hire car).

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Post by David-H » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:45 am

Angelus666 wrote:
DLH wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:I'm struggling with some of this....so, apparently he was 'known' to MI5...so we must presume he's on their watch list, but yet he drive from Birmingham into the city of London (the most CCTV'd place on the planet)...come towards Parliament (surely that should have triggered alarms)...mow down some people, then approach parliament on foot, stab a police officer before he's finally dealt with.

Shouldn't he be pulled over once he enters London and questioned over why he is there??!

What the f**k are our intelligence agencies actually doing....??!
WAS is the key here, in that the last time he committed an offence was more than ten years ago and there are >3000 people on the watch list and they can't all be kept under surveillance 24/7! Surely, you don't believe that CCTV will identify someone like this when he's inside a hire car within a matter of minutes? FFS!
Ha, I work within the tech industry and even luxury retailers have the facial recognition tech to know when a repeat/good customer comes back into store within 5 seconds.....so it must stand to reason the intelligence agencies have the technology to know when a 'known' person is entering an environment that he shouldn't normally be in (even in a hire car).
So, someone born in Kent shouldn't normally be in the middle of London? :roll:
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Post by elevensies » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:29 am

Angelus666 wrote:
DLH wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:
Shouldn't he be pulled over once he enters London and questioned over why he is there??!

What the f**k are our intelligence agencies actually doing....??!

Ha, I work within the tech industry and even luxury retailers have the facial recognition tech to know when a repeat/good customer comes back into store within 5 seconds.....so it must stand to reason the intelligence agencies have the technology to know when a 'known' person is entering an environment that he shouldn't normally be in (even in a hire car).
er not quite, the industry has come a very long way, but were not quite at Hollywood stages yet, thats down to COST
department stores banks and the like can invest 2 million on a series of security measures, but now take that to a UK wide scale.....then ask why have our council tax bills gone up 30%
it all comes down to realistic and quantifiable security, bean crunching, call it what you like.
this world is ruined because of greed.
iv had the pleasure of working in environments, most of you could never imagine, and always, i you turn my head, and the greedy power crazed is the other side of the proverbial road.
I have said before, WE wont win against this while we have people in power too scared to make the decision (unlike Russia)

Look at south America, they are not suffering at the hands like the rest of the world, ask why? they have their own maffia related issues but their tolerance for this is zero,
Russia, again no great desire for isis and such to go there as its a country that wont tolerate
hard countries that take skill and desire to frighten

us lot, we are a push over, once behind out locked doors at night with the tv on and a glass of wine!!
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Post by Ewazix » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:28 pm

Angelus666 wrote:
DLH wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:I'm struggling with some of this....so, apparently he was 'known' to MI5...so we must presume he's on their watch list, but yet he drive from Birmingham into the city of London (the most CCTV'd place on the planet)...come towards Parliament (surely that should have triggered alarms)...mow down some people, then approach parliament on foot, stab a police officer before he's finally dealt with.

Shouldn't he be pulled over once he enters London and questioned over why he is there??!

What the f**k are our intelligence agencies actually doing....??!
WAS is the key here, in that the last time he committed an offence was more than ten years ago and there are >3000 people on the watch list and they can't all be kept under surveillance 24/7! Surely, you don't believe that CCTV will identify someone like this when he's inside a hire car within a matter of minutes? FFS!
Ha, I work within the tech industry and even luxury retailers have the facial recognition tech to know when a repeat/good customer comes back into store within 5 seconds.....so it must stand to reason the intelligence agencies have the technology to know when a 'known' person is entering an environment that he shouldn't normally be in (even in a hire car).
Really? you know Bourne, Bond and Spooks is fiction I hope! In the 'real world' low tech loners and sleepers marauding with freely available weapons is a tactic that is impossible to completely guard against, even in authoritarian locked down zones like the West Bank of Israel let alone the West Bank of London. The only comfort from this sort of pointless barbarism is that the Brit's have seen worse and not been phased, and using radicalised psychopaths on suicide missions smacks of desperation.
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Post by extrablatt » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:48 pm

One of these most depressing things I've heard about this -- addition to the still rising death toll -- is the terrorist was from Kent. With all the anti-immigrant sentiment in the media, it just goes to show they shouldn't have the finger pointed at them.

7/7 was the same, with 3 of 4 British born. Being from the likes of High Wycombe and Aylesbury.

I'm glad that it's business as usual in London. We can't let the terrorists win.
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Post by Paulr » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:02 pm

elevensies wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:
DLH wrote:

Ha, I work within the tech industry and even luxury retailers have the facial recognition tech to know when a repeat/good customer comes back into store within 5 seconds.....so it must stand to reason the intelligence agencies have the technology to know when a 'known' person is entering an environment that he shouldn't normally be in (even in a hire car).
er not quite, the industry has come a very long way, but were not quite at Hollywood stages yet, thats down to COST
department stores banks and the like can invest 2 million on a series of security measures, but now take that to a UK wide scale.....then ask why have our council tax bills gone up 30%
it all comes down to realistic and quantifiable security, bean crunching, call it what you like.
this world is ruined because of greed.
iv had the pleasure of working in environments, most of you could never imagine, and always, i you turn my head, and the greedy power crazed is the other side of the proverbial road.
I have said before, WE wont win against this while we have people in power too scared to make the decision (unlike Russia)

Look at south America, they are not suffering at the hands like the rest of the world, ask why? they have their own maffia related issues but their tolerance for this is zero,
Russia, again no great desire for isis and such to go there as its a country that wont tolerate
hard countries that take skill and desire to frighten

us lot, we are a push over, once behind out locked doors at night with the tv on and a glass of wine!!
That sounds like you are suggesting Russia and south America are better places to live than the UK because of their hard line attitudes?
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Post by Angelus666 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:16 pm

Ewazix wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:
DLH wrote: WAS is the key here, in that the last time he committed an offence was more than ten years ago and there are >3000 people on the watch list and they can't all be kept under surveillance 24/7! Surely, you don't believe that CCTV will identify someone like this when he's inside a hire car within a matter of minutes? FFS!
Ha, I work within the tech industry and even luxury retailers have the facial recognition tech to know when a repeat/good customer comes back into store within 5 seconds.....so it must stand to reason the intelligence agencies have the technology to know when a 'known' person is entering an environment that he shouldn't normally be in (even in a hire car).
Really? you know Bourne, Bond and Spooks is fiction I hope! In the 'real world' low tech loners and sleepers marauding with freely available weapons is a tactic that is impossible to completely guard against, even in authoritarian locked down zones like the West Bank of Israel let alone the West Bank of London. The only comfort from this sort of pointless barbarism is that the Brit's have seen worse and not been phased, and using radicalised psychopaths on suicide missions smacks of desperation.
Maybe my point was lost a little....this guy was on the watch list, he was known to MI5, his face would have been on the database...I completely agree it's almost impossible to stop an unknown creating havoc, but surely the people we have marked on an MI5 watch list should be easy to spot coming into a high target area like Westminster....or am I missing something?!

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Post by Ewazix » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:03 pm

Angelus666 wrote:
Ewazix wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:
Ha, I work within the tech industry and even luxury retailers have the facial recognition tech to know when a repeat/good customer comes back into store within 5 seconds.....so it must stand to reason the intelligence agencies have the technology to know when a 'known' person is entering an environment that he shouldn't normally be in (even in a hire car).
Really? you know Bourne, Bond and Spooks is fiction I hope! In the 'real world' low tech loners and sleepers marauding with freely available weapons is a tactic that is impossible to completely guard against, even in authoritarian locked down zones like the West Bank of Israel let alone the West Bank of London. The only comfort from this sort of pointless barbarism is that the Brit's have seen worse and not been phased, and using radicalised psychopaths on suicide missions smacks of desperation.
Maybe my point was lost a little....this guy was on the watch list, he was known to MI5, his face would have been on the database...I completely agree it's almost impossible to stop an unknown creating havoc, but surely the people we have marked on an MI5 watch list should be easy to spot coming into a high target area like Westminster....or am I missing something?!
Are you seriously suggesting that technology is available that can reliably scan a face (driver? rear passenger?), possibly wearing shades, hat etc in a moving hire vehicle? even UK border control requires you to stand still, no glasses and look directly in to the camera and moving CCTV of people on foot (let alone in a vehicle) is currently wildly unreliable. The thing you ARE missing is that the US and other Western protagonist have tried increasingly high tech responses which give a false sense of security against low tech, low profile terrorist. The UK has a solid background of 'hearts and minds', and intelligence led strategies against terrorism, that ultimately will be the way forward.
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Post by maxman » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:22 pm

extrablatt wrote:One of these most depressing things I've heard about this -- addition to the still rising death toll -- is the terrorist was from Kent. With all the anti-immigrant sentiment in the media, it just goes to show they shouldn't have the finger pointed at them.

7/7 was the same, with 3 of 4 British born. Being from the likes of High Wycombe and Aylesbury.

I'm glad that it's business as usual in London. We can't let the terrorists win.
They might be born in the U.K. but they don't see themselves as British and never will,how we deal with it I don't know.There are towns and cities in England and Wales that have people with the same attitude..Controling immigration has got to be a start.

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Post by elevensies » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:47 pm

not suggesting a better place to live at all, i was pointing out that we are easy because of our way of life, we are an easy target for this to happen because we have liberal do-gooders, and the fact no one has said, enough is enough.

they dont class british as anything at all, we are merely a vessel for them to get more, just as every country is.
I cant debate on here, about this, but seeing is believing, and not everyone wants to see.
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Post by Bing » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:57 pm

Ewazix wrote:
Angelus666 wrote:
Ewazix wrote:
Really? you know Bourne, Bond and Spooks is fiction I hope! In the 'real world' low tech loners and sleepers marauding with freely available weapons is a tactic that is impossible to completely guard against, even in authoritarian locked down zones like the West Bank of Israel let alone the West Bank of London. The only comfort from this sort of pointless barbarism is that the Brit's have seen worse and not been phased, and using radicalised psychopaths on suicide missions smacks of desperation.
Maybe my point was lost a little....this guy was on the watch list, he was known to MI5, his face would have been on the database...I completely agree it's almost impossible to stop an unknown creating havoc, but surely the people we have marked on an MI5 watch list should be easy to spot coming into a high target area like Westminster....or am I missing something?!
Are you seriously suggesting that technology is available that can reliably scan a face (driver? rear passenger?), possibly wearing shades, hat etc in a moving hire vehicle? even UK border control requires you to stand still, no glasses and look directly in to the camera and moving CCTV of people on foot (let alone in a vehicle) is currently wildly unreliable. The thing you ARE missing is that the US and other Western protagonist have tried increasingly high tech responses which give a false sense of security against low tech, low profile terrorist. The UK has a solid background of 'hearts and minds', and intelligence led strategies against terrorism, that ultimately will be the way forward.
Even if you can do it, the cost of applying this technology to every CCTV camera in the UK, every day, all the time would be astronomical - both in terms of tech cost and manpower to validate what the tech was telling them. The number of false positives would be huge as well, it's not like a CCTV image of a person's face is as precise as, say, a finger print. There are about 400,000 CCTV cameras in/around London, and over 4 million in the UK. London Underground use facial recognition and object recognition (think abandoned rucksack) extensively, but that's in a well lit environment with well defined human traffic flows in a confined space. even sunshine or the reflection of a cloud on a windscreen could prevent someone being identified. I know this sort of tech exists, but I was of the opinion it is used retrospectively ?

And by the way, is advocating a society where everyone / anyone can be (and are) tracked by their face on CCTV a good thing ? All passport photos and driving licence photos are digitally stored now, so in theory could be applied to this technology, where it exists. And of course CCTVs can be hacked into, so that sort of capability could be used for criminal purposes too. Bit Big Brother if you ask me.

Nothing could have prevented what happened - what our security services did was mitigate the threat effectively, and fortunately the chap (or his car) wasn't strapped up with a huge bomb.
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Post by TitanTim » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:58 pm

elevensies wrote:
TitanTim wrote:A tragedy for those caught up in it but surprised it's taken this long before something kicked off, looks like the police were onto it quick thank god.

Tim.
Tim, it hasnt this was just one they hadnt caught before it occurred, there's many 'incidents' that dont get published in press for obvious reasons, and i cant tell you more but there's many.

ironically to bolster above statement, how many people up until yesterdays news release knew about the laptop bombing on the airplane last year, none is my bet, until it affected people wanting to take laptops etc aboard...
goes to show you.
sad as it all is, we will never win this...ever

I'm sure counter terror intelligence helps prevents attacks from actually taking place but this one has been the only successful attack in the past 10 years or so, I'm just surprised it hasn't happened sooner.

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Post by pvr » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:28 pm

I am sure they can trace this back. As always, there is a Muslim convert involved. Find the mosque involved, find everyone involved there and roll it up. I can't comment on what the security forces do as I have no idea, but I would like to think that they are not tied by good-doers and can get on with the job.
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Post by elevensies » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:56 pm

pvr wrote:I am sure they can trace this back. As always, there is a Muslim convert involved. Find the mosque involved, find everyone involved there and roll it up. I can't comment on what the security forces do as I have no idea, but I would like to think that they are not tied by good-doers and can get on with the job.



unfortunately, yes :thumbsdown:
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Post by Geezah » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:06 pm

elevensies wrote:
pvr wrote:I am sure they can trace this back. As always, there is a Muslim convert involved. Find the mosque involved, find everyone involved there and roll it up. I can't comment on what the security forces do as I have no idea, but I would like to think that they are not tied by good-doers and can get on with the job.



unfortunately, yes :thumbsdown:

Trude dat! :thumbsdown:

Look at the amount of do-gooders getting their knickers in a twist because the RAF were using drones to take out these nut jobs.
Hell! Use whatever means are at your disposal I would say. These do-gooders live in a parallel universe to normal thinking people.

Experienced this 'Pink and Fluffy' attitude in Starbucks only this week. Woman sitting next to me finishes her coffee and leaves, leaving her bag behind. Me thinking she was away to the cludgie ignored it but after some time, her table was cleared and her bag was still there. I informed a member of staff who removed it.

The owner eventually came back looking all flustered as her bag was missing. I said, good humouredly, ' Good to see you back, you don't look like a terrorist anyway, the management have your bag.' She looked at me and in all seriousness said, ' You shouldn't think bad of everyone, there are good people in the world too you know.' as she flounced off. True, I didn't expect any thanks for being an observant, security conscious member of the public.

So.....by definition then, she acknowledges that there are also bad people in the world....but that we should do nothing about it?

I rest my case Petrocelli! :headbang:
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