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Faint knocking? (Clip)

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AndyBeech
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Faint knocking? (Clip)

Post by AndyBeech » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:43 pm

BMWZ4MC wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:52 pm
AndyBeech wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:41 pm
Beedub wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:35 pm

dont suppose you got to keep any of the worn followers did you??? id love to see how they wear when they go bad... i can keep an eye out when the cam cover is off mine.

What was the mileage?
Can only imagine that could happen with a lack of oil, oil pump fail or something of the like? Certainly doesn't sound normal!
The followers wear due to inadequate case hardening as opposed to being a direct consequence of a lack of lubrication. If ignored, this leads to a consequential wear of the cam lobes. Shrick sell BMW followers with additional case hardening which (they claim) prevents the problem.
There has been much speculation that the problem affects only cars that have been thrashed from cold or tracked, or that it is a result of incompetently adjusted followers, but there's no evidence that any of this is true and the problem is surprisingly common amongst Z4Ms and E46 M3s.
But a failure of nearly all of them and the bottom end as well? If it was purely the case hardening then nearly everyone with an S54 would have to replace them at some point and that doesn't appear to be the case so...logically something else must be going on?
You say common but...I've spoken to a few independent specialists in the S54 world and from what I've been told I wouldn't say it's common, depending on you're definition of the term.
As the old saying goes, you only hear about the one's that have problems, not the many that don't.
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Faint knocking? (Clip)

Post by Beedub » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 pm

firebobby wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:42 pm Why did BMW build such a fickle engine, reminds me of the Triumph Stag in the early years. These engine issues and the sky high road tax just don't appeal to me on the M cars.
please don't come in here talking shite. These are very robust motors, and have no less issues than the next performance engines.... We are talking decade old engines and most have seen the rev limit a good few times, as thats what ///M made it to do....

On the case of the solid top end, ferrari...used the same tech in the f12 TDF now a million quid car, and Porsche has just used it in the latest GT3........ its race derived stuff and things go wrong....
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Faint knocking? (Clip)

Post by firebobby » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:30 pm

Beedub wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 pm
firebobby wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:42 pm Why did BMW build such a fickle engine, reminds me of the Triumph Stag in the early years. These engine issues and the sky high road tax just don't appeal to me on the M cars.
please don't come in here talking shite. These are very robust motors, and have no less issues than the next performance engines.... We are talking decade old engines and most have seen the rev limit a good few times, as thats what ///M made it to do....

On the case of the solid top end, ferrari...used the same tech in the f12 TDF now a million quid car, and Porsche has just used it in the latest GT3........ its race derived stuff and things go wrong....
Sorry mate but there are quite a few threads on here about bottom end/shell rebuilds and top end issues with these engines, just an observation really, Didn't think it was shite :P
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Post by MrPT » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:33 pm

After some investigative work, I'm pretty sure mine was caused by skipped valve clearance adjustments during Insp II (not while under forum ownership but I know the indie quite well). That was at 44k and the failure was at 53k after hard driving (Nurburgring). The rod bearing shells were replaced during an exploratory look at the bottom end and didn't look great, but they didn't look much different to others with similar mileage and certainly hadn't spun or pitted badly. The general condition of the car is one of the best I have seen for its age and I'm hoping to hold onto it for a very long time.

Look away now if you are squeamish - here are some pics of the followers. I actually keep the worst one on my keyring as a reminder to take it easy!

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/1zx1qaf.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/2ajtjqs.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/2jcspk1.jpg[/IMG]

I think there were nearly 100k S54s made, so I'm sure we're looking at a relatively low failure rate for such a highly strung engine. The problem is, I don't think your typical M3 or Z4M owner would understand just how much damage they could do by not religiously sticking to the servicing schedule and not ragging the engine from cold. It's so painful when you take someone out for a spin and you have to trundle around for ages warming the thing up. But it must be done!
Argenta wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:00 pm Thanx again, yeah you prob need a set of earphones for this. :)
Will be back at the INDY tomorrow morning for a good check.
Good luck. Let us know how it goes, either way. :)
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Post by Beedub » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:47 pm

MrPT wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:33 pm After some investigative work, I'm pretty sure mine was caused by skipped valve clearance adjustments during Insp II (not while under forum ownership but I know the indie quite well). That was at 44k and the failure was at 53k after hard driving (Nurburgring). The rod bearing shells were replaced during an exploratory look at the bottom end and didn't look great, but they didn't look much different to others with similar mileage and certainly hadn't spun or pitted badly. The general condition of the car is one of the best I have seen for its age and I'm hoping to hold onto it for a very long time.

Look away now if you are squeamish - here are some pics of the followers. I actually keep the worst one on my keyring as a reminder to take it easy!

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/1zx1qaf.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/2ajtjqs.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/2jcspk1.jpg[/IMG]

I think there were nearly 100k S54s made, so I'm sure we're looking at a relatively low failure rate for such a highly strung engine. The problem is, I don't think your typical M3 or Z4M owner would understand just how much damage they could do by not religiously sticking to the servicing schedule and not ragging the engine from cold. It's so painful when you take someone out for a spin and you have to trundle around for ages warming the thing up. But it must be done!
Argenta wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:00 pm Thanx again, yeah you prob need a set of earphones for this. :)
Will be back at the INDY tomorrow morning for a good check.
Good luck. Let us know how it goes, either way. :)

jeeezzzzzzzz the flat spot on that follower is insane.... These are seriously tough material as well, the cam lobe must have been worn off! Also agree with your comments totally.
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Post by BMWZ4MC » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:04 pm

Once the case hardening has worn through, they're soft as butter....
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Post by BMWZ4MC » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:11 pm

AndyBeech wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:43 pm
BMWZ4MC wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:52 pm
AndyBeech wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:41 pm

What was the mileage?
Can only imagine that could happen with a lack of oil, oil pump fail or something of the like? Certainly doesn't sound normal!
The followers wear due to inadequate case hardening as opposed to being a direct consequence of a lack of lubrication. If ignored, this leads to a consequential wear of the cam lobes. Schrick sell BMW followers with additional case hardening which (they claim) prevents the problem.
There has been much speculation that the problem affects only cars that have been thrashed from cold or tracked, or that it is a result of incompetently adjusted followers, but there's no evidence that any of this is true and the problem is surprisingly common amongst Z4Ms and E46 M3s.
But a failure of nearly all of them and the bottom end as well? If it was purely the case hardening then nearly everyone with an S54 would have to replace them at some point and that doesn't appear to be the case so...logically something else must be going on?
You say common but...I've spoken to a few independent specialists in the S54 world and from what I've been told I wouldn't say it's common, depending on you're definition of the term.
As the old saying goes, you only hear about the one's that have problems, not the many that don't.
Ive spoken with a few reputable Indys too and the good ones have seen quite a few. That Schrick sell modified followers demonstrates there's a market for them.
Anecdotal evidence of course, but no more so than the postulations that about cars thrashed from cold and track day specials being those that fail :wink:
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Post by MrPT » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:21 pm

Beedub wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:47 pmjeeezzzzzzzz the flat spot on that follower is insane.... These are seriously tough material as well, the cam lobe must have been worn off! Also agree with your comments totally.
The lobes were fine. Surprising, but they were checked by CPC and reinstalled without reprofiling. The valves were lapped and reseated too, which makes me think that the followers and the valve seats were damaged by some of the clearances becoming too tight. It was about £2k of work, excluding the replacement DLC-coated Schrick followers and updated springs.

As mentioned above, the case hardening on the followers has apparently been known to fail and then the follower will go very quickly (and not at the cost of the camshafts, if caught early enough). The case hardening can be damaged by "scuff" wear, which is something finger followers are particularly susceptible to, and this is accelerated by poor oil quality. Makes sense, but doesn't sound as damaging as a genuine valve clearance issue.
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Post by NavZ » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:48 pm

Might be cams/followers.
Does the sound follow the revs ie. increase in line with the revs? (not necessarily volume but tempo)
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Post by MrPT » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:15 pm

AndyBeech wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:43 pmBut a failure of nearly all of them and the bottom end as well?
Bottom end didn't fail. Owner took the car to a BMW dealership initially and they replaced the bearing shells, which didn't fix the issue. Probably just a lazy diagnosis based on historical issues with E46 M3s.
MrPT wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:33 pm After some investigative work, I'm pretty sure mine was caused by skipped valve clearance adjustments during Insp II (not while under forum ownership but I know the indie quite well).
Just to clarify this for anybody that's interested. Clearances were in spec but not adjusted back to the middle of the acceptable range (or slightly north of it). This is in line with BMW guidelines, but probably not something that should be skipped, given what we now know about these engines. To me it doesn't make sense to skip it, once you already have the lid off.
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Post by BMWZ4MC » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:21 pm

I doubt that alone would be enough to cause such marked failure.
I think there was a design issue with the followers (hence the Schrick modification). Perhaps there were good and bad batches or perhaps there is an inherent predisposition to accelerated wear in all and in some engines another factor precipitates failure.
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Post by dannytheduck1985 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:28 pm

Beedub wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 pm
firebobby wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:42 pm Why did BMW build such a fickle engine, reminds me of the Triumph Stag in the early years. These engine issues and the sky high road tax just don't appeal to me on the M cars.
please don't come in here talking shite. These are very robust motors, and have no less issues than the next performance engines.... We are talking decade old engines and most have seen the rev limit a good few times, as thats what ///M made it to do....

On the case of the solid top end, ferrari...used the same tech in the f12 TDF now a million quid car, and Porsche has just used it in the latest GT3........ its race derived stuff and things go wrong....
Sorry but first line :rofl: like a wrecking ball, love it
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Post by MrPT » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:35 pm

Hah. Having met Fred I'm sure he can take it. :D
BMWZ4MC wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:21 pm I doubt that alone would be enough to cause such marked failure.
I think there was a design issue with the followers (hence the Schrick modification). Perhaps there were good and bad batches or perhaps there is an inherent predisposition to accelerated wear in all and in some engines another factor precipitates failure.
Quite possibly, yeah. I always thought that Schrick coated the followers specifically for use with its high performance cams, but it's telling that they don't advise against using them with stock cams, i.e. they see the cam surface as being tough enough and not vulnerable to being damaged by the uprated coating.

So annoying that there still isn't much conclusive evidence re. all of this. It's going to cost some poor owners a lot of cash over the next few years. I wish I had the clearance specs from the Insp II and also the camshaft positions of each of the damaged followers. That would at least be another "fact" to chuck into the mix.
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Post by firebobby » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:06 pm

dannytheduck1985 wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:28 pm
Beedub wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 pm
firebobby wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:42 pm Why did BMW build such a fickle engine, reminds me of the Triumph Stag in the early years. These engine issues and the sky high road tax just don't appeal to me on the M cars.
please don't come in here talking shite. These are very robust motors, and have no less issues than the next performance engines.... We are talking decade old engines and most have seen the rev limit a good few times, as thats what ///M made it to do....

On the case of the solid top end, ferrari...used the same tech in the f12 TDF now a million quid car, and Porsche has just used it in the latest GT3........ its race derived stuff and things go wrong....
Sorry but first line :rofl: like a wrecking ball, love it
NOT FUNNY, I cried myself to sleep last night after such an unneeded attack :roll:
Obviously hit a nerve though :lol:
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Post by ph001 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:48 pm

Just to clarify this for anybody that's interested. Clearances were in spec but not adjusted back to the middle of the acceptable range (or slightly north of it). This is in line with BMW guidelines, but probably not something that should be skipped, given what we now know about these engines. To me it doesn't make sense to skip it, once you already have the lid off.
Having done the valve clearances myself a couple of times I can say that the adjustment to get them from one end of the tolerance range to the centre is extremely small. In fact I found that checking them first thing in the morning (7'C) and then again in the middle of the afternoon (approx 18'C) is enough to move them from the centre to the end of the specified range. The window really is that small which is why BMW state that it must be done at a specific workshop temperature (20'C IIRC). Given they then run at 90'C during normal operation you can extrapolate that the design margin must be pretty large.

I've never seen any direct evidence that valve clearance at one end of the range (but not centred) would ever cause any damage. I'd be pretty amazed if it did.
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