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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

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TomK
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by TomK » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:37 am

FD3S wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:12 pm Tom thanks for you detailed answer once again.
Last night I had to do around 250 km to make a business meeting. So late at night returning back home I give it a try with second and third gear all the way up to 8200 rpm. The problem it was obvious and the same thing happened. From 7100 rpm you could feel the drop of power. Also I have put filled the car with 100 octane gas.

Do you mention to monitor my engine with something like toque. What kind of obd port do you use with that app?
I will search to see if there is something similar for iOS devices.

I have taken a photo from the car at the garage to see where my airbox ends. Sorry guys for the dust it is after a trip the car.
During both dynos the car had open bonnet.

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Your suggestion about the relocation of the IAT sensor seams more and more logical.
Btw I have found this on Turner:
https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3917 ... n-harness/
Do you know it makes sense to buy it?


Now to answer you also why I bother with all that since i rarely push the car hard. The reason is that I want to have everything completed and perfect in my life and then to be able to forget them and find new endeavours. :D
Happy to help if I can, but I'm no tuner so take my advice with a pinch of salt. I was only kidding about the revs, of course you should have this working correctly, it would bug the hell out of me!
Any old ELM 327 OBD bluetooth interface should work, I paid £5ish off ebay I think. I think Dash Command does the same thing as Torque which is available on ios so try that.
I just had a look at my IAT temps yesterday (never done it on this car) and with normal driving (i.e. not slow in traffic) it remained within 5c degrees of ambient temp, this is the first thing I would be looking at before deciding if you need to relocate it.
Also bear in mind that the ECU I think will need at least a tank or two of higher octane fuel before it starts adapting afaik.
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by ph001 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 am

Don't underestimate the importance of perfectly optimised length and profile of the intake system. There is a ton of complex fluid dynamics and resonance going on due to the pulse nature that the engine pulls air in. BMW spend millions of dollars on this stuff. You can't expect to chuck a half finished intake on there and get good results.
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by Beedub » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:23 am

ph001 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 am Don't underestimate the importance of perfectly optimised length and profile of the intake system. There is a ton of complex fluid dynamics and resonance going on due to the pulse nature that the engine pulls air in. BMW spend millions of dollars on this stuff. You can't expect to chuck a half finished intake on there and get good results.

what ,makes you think its half finished... id guess these are copies are the oem CSL box which as we known is a very nice piece
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by ph001 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:13 am

Beedub wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:23 am
ph001 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 am Don't underestimate the importance of perfectly optimised length and profile of the intake system. There is a ton of complex fluid dynamics and resonance going on due to the pulse nature that the engine pulls air in. BMW spend millions of dollars on this stuff. You can't expect to chuck a half finished intake on there and get good results.

what ,makes you think its half finished... id guess these are copies are the oem CSL box which as we known is a very nice piece
The abrupt end with 4 mounting holes showing for a start! Filter? Unless that's not how it actually was on the dyno run.
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by TomK » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:20 pm

ph001 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:13 am
Beedub wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:23 am
ph001 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 am Don't underestimate the importance of perfectly optimised length and profile of the intake system. There is a ton of complex fluid dynamics and resonance going on due to the pulse nature that the engine pulls air in. BMW spend millions of dollars on this stuff. You can't expect to chuck a half finished intake on there and get good results.

what ,makes you think its half finished... id guess these are copies are the oem CSL box which as we known is a very nice piece
The abrupt end with 4 mounting holes showing for a start! Filter? Unless that's not how it actually was on the dyno run.
The filter in these boxes is located like this
foto06.jpg
foto06.jpg (188.91 KiB) Viewed 2191 times
But I agree not having some kind of final part on the box that should screw in there probably isn't ideal.
@FD3S, did karbonius or your tuner have any view on how the box would run without the snorkel piece?
There's some boxes out there that don't even bother with it so I can't imagine it makes a huge amount of difference?
foto07.jpg
foto07.jpg (178.49 KiB) Viewed 2191 times
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by ph001 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:11 pm

Ok, but it still looks like there should be something bolted on the end, otherwise why the flange and 4 fixing holes?
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by RedUn » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:05 pm

The karbonious is 100% designed for the oem snorkel or the karbonious carbon replica...
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by FD3S » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:06 pm

ph001 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 am Don't underestimate the importance of perfectly optimised length and profile of the intake system. There is a ton of complex fluid dynamics and resonance going on due to the pulse nature that the engine pulls air in. BMW spend millions of dollars on this stuff. You can't expect to chuck a half finished intake on there and get good results.
Ph001 thanks for your answer. My airbox is on purpose installed this way.
Karbonius Csl airbox is the closest you can find to the OE CSL. The CSL airbox it was introduced first to the M3 CSL and for that reason this box or even the CSL OE is not a perfect fit for our cars. The complete OE CSL airbox has two basic parts: 1) One the main body and 2) a snorkel.

Complete OE CSL Snorkel
Image

INSTALLED

Image

Snorkel alone

Image



The OE CSL snorkel has a "flap" that is programmed to open and closed depending on the revs on a M3 CSL car. In our cars the flap can't work. Karbonius has build a carbon copy of the OE CSL snorkel too. However it didn't make sense to pay around 400-450 euros for the CSL OE or the Karbonius snorkel, when I could make a custom design snorkel for some more money, which it will fit my needs specifically. Unfortunately this needs time and thinking how it can be done correctly.

About the finish of the CSL Airbox you can see the thread that I have started on the zpost, since I could foresee that small issue and that is why I avoided to buy a ready made snorkel:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1342648

Please not also that the CSL snorkel OE or copy of it, require cutting some pieces to fit of it, to it can fit in our cars.

The filter is like TOM showed to you and it is the same filter that the OE CSL Airbox uses, to produce the same sound. This filter alone costs around 130 euros.

Subject: Some mods on a Z4M Roadster
RedUn wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:06 pm There's a further piece you can buy to finish the box off which will move the intake closer to the feed pipe.

Its also got a much more aerodynamic shape to the inlet so I imagine that will help at high rpm, a straight edge like you've got won't be helping.

By the way, I've no idea how much the bell mouth shape will help but without a doubt it will help.

You can buy a genuine one from bmw but you will need to mess with the flap or karbonious sell a full carbon one that's nice 8)

Nice work on the car by the way :thumbsup:
RedUN I'm glad that you like my car. :D
Last edited by FD3S on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by FD3S » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:34 pm

TomK wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:20 pm
@FD3S, did karbonius or your tuner have any view on how the box would run without the snorkel piece?
There's some boxes out there that don't even bother with it so I can't imagine it makes a huge amount of difference?
foto07.jpg
Tom my mechanic has no clue.He just told me that those cars the best airflow they have, the more power they produce. Ok, tell me something new. Even I knew that... I don't blame him though since here we have only 5-8 Z4M's. Mine is the first Z4M here in Greece with CSL Airbox.
After some pressure, he proposed to me to open a hole in the lights and it can suck the air direct from there. That needs also cutting the a small piece of the frame etc. I told him that my car is beautiful and classy and I don't want to cannibalise it with a such a quick fix.

I have discuss this with Randy too and when I proposed the custom snorkel as a solution he told me that " the guys from the dyno were running it to 170 MPH and the run was WAY too long. The heat buildup is WAY too much." I can't understand if it is the dyno fault how a run can be shorter.

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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by Vanne » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:43 pm

FD, mate that box is perfect, no real snorkel required, esp for a dyno, as it's not forced air at that stage anyways. In the real world I don't think.it makes any, if all diff between having a snork or not.

Tom, I think both oem CSL temp probe and the bimmerworld one (Randy recommends) are exactly the same internally. I have my temp probe in exact the same position. I have seen numerous m3's here that have relocated the temp probe to the lip of the snorkel to combat heat soak. Does it work? Dunno, possibly.

Lovely box mate, hope you get the numbers your chasing. Subbed.
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by FD3S » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:58 pm

Some new gifts today for my baby:

Michelin PSS for the stock wheels
Sizes front 225/45/18, rear 255/40/18.

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Pros: I have managed to do only 10 km so I will update soon.

Cons: -

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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by TomK » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:18 pm

FD3S wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:34 pm I have discuss this with Randy too and when I proposed the custom snorkel as a solution he told me that " the guys from the dyno were running it to 170 MPH and the run was WAY too long. The heat buildup is WAY too much." I can't understand if it is the dyno fault how a run can be shorter.
So they were using 5th gear rather than 4th I guess (like mine peaking at 157mph), I dunno, as I said I'm no tuner... but it's different for some dynos afaik. You'd think the guy with the dyno would know what they are doing and the guy with the map likewise! You can really tell by logging IATs whilst doing the run and see where you are.
Vanne wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:43 pm Tom, I think both oem CSL temp probe and the bimmerworld one (Randy recommends) are exactly the same internally. I have my temp probe in exact the same position. I have seen numerous m3's here that have relocated the temp probe to the lip of the snorkel to combat heat soak. Does it work? Dunno, possibly.
It dosen't really matter which is used as long as the tuner is aware, they just have different resistance which affects the scale of the map.
Not sure if FD3S's problem is heatsoak but it is a suggestion worth investigating
Vanne wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:43 pm Lovely box mate, hope you get the numbers your chasing. Subbed.
I don't think it's numbers he is/should be chasing, it's the shape of the curve that is important here, numbers irrelevant.
You guys have the exact same setup (box/map) right (minus the snorkel)? Did you get yours on the dyno Vanne?
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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by FD3S » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:52 pm

Vanne wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:43 pm FD, mate that box is perfect, no real snorkel required, esp for a dyno, as it's not forced air at that stage anyways. In the real world I don't think.it makes any, if all diff between having a snork or not.

Tom, I think both oem CSL temp probe and the bimmerworld one (Randy recommends) are exactly the same internally. I have my temp probe in exact the same position. I have seen numerous m3's here that have relocated the temp probe to the lip of the snorkel to combat heat soak. Does it work? Dunno, possibly.

Lovely box mate, hope you get the numbers your chasing. Subbed.
Vanne thank you for your good words. I appreciate them even more since your car is inspiration for me.
You know that all your posts and your pm was a huge help for me and once again thank you.
I understand from your post that there are two types of CSL temp probes. Does it make sense to change to a bimmerworld one?
Also if the temp probe is used can this cause the problem?

By the way have you managed to dyno your car?

The snorkel is something I would like to build, so I can find a better solution from the existing ones, and if I succeed, to have something to give back to the forum community.

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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by FD3S » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:12 pm

TomK wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:18 pm So they were using 5th gear rather than 4th I guess (like mine peaking at 157mph), I dunno, as I said I'm no tuner... but it's different for some dynos afaik. You'd think the guy with the dyno would know what they are doing and the guy with the map likewise! You can really tell by logging IATs whilst doing the run and see where you are.
Yes the dyno guy run it on fifth. I have ordered the OBD2 logger so I can log with the torque app. Soon I will have data on that.
TomK wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:18 pm It dosen't really matter which is used as long as the tuner is aware, they just have different resistance which affects the scale of the map.
Not sure if FD3S's problem is heatsoak but it is a suggestion worth investigating
I didn't knew that there are two different kind of temp probes so I didn't notify Randy. After I make the logs with Torque and all the other needed things I will notify him, to see if it makes any difference for him.

TomK wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:18 pm I don't think it's numbers he is/should be chasing, it's the shape of the curve that is important here, numbers irrelevant.
Totally agree with that. :thumbsup:

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Some mods on a Z4M Roadster

Post by Babw » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:01 pm

FD3S like you I couldn't justify £400 for the Karbonius Snorkel so am going with the Geoff Steel Racing FRP one for £150.

I too my Karbonius out of the packaging today, the finish is beautiful but looking inside the airbox there seems to be a small gap where the two parts of the box meet. Wondering if yours is the same?

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