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M market watch

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nickw6666
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Post by nickw6666 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:44 pm

Agreed Mr Wilks, it may take the seller some time to find that right buyer, and it's not guranteed.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Z4M pricing. My personal view is that they will continue to rise and go beyond £30k, for good cars well maintained of course.

I look at air cooled Porsche 911's, which I really like, and think they are crazy money, but people still pay because they are unique pieces of automotive history that provide a driving experience completely different from modern cars.

Having driven 964 and 993 911's I think they are lovely cars with great character but the Z4M for me matches them or beats them in a number of areas for probably 1/3 of the price. e.g. S54 engine..

With the hybrid and electric vehicle revolution gathering pace I think the old school, raw, high-rev engined cars will become very sought after, especially those cars that are quite rare such as the Z4M.

Time will tell of course!
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Previous: 2009 Guards Red Porsche Cayman S 987.2 Gen II
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Previous: 2007 Meteor Grey 997.1 Porsche 911 Carrera S

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mr wilks
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Post by mr wilks » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:57 pm

nickw6666 wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:44 pm Agreed Mr Wilks, it may take the seller some time to find that right buyer, and it's not guranteed.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Z4M pricing. My personal view is that they will continue to rise and go beyond £30k, for good cars well maintained of course.

I look at air cooled Porsche 911's, which I really like, and think they are crazy money, but people still pay because they are unique pieces of atomative history that eluded a driving experience completely different from modern cars.

Having driven 964 and 993 911's I think they are lovely cars with great character but the Z4M for me matches them or beats them in a number of areas for probably 1/3 of the price. e.g. S54 engine..

With the hybrid and electric vehicle revolution gathering pace I think the old school, raw, high-rev engined cars will become very sought after, especially those cars that are quite rare such as the Z4M.

Time will tell of course!
Totally on your wavelength , i bought a 964 when they were unloved but to me it was a boyhood dream car .
7yrs ago i paid £10k for a great example , spent £1200 on it & enjoyed a year then saw what i thought was opportunity to "upgrade" to a newer 911 ( 996 C2 ) whilst pocketing cash my way :o 3 months later the 911 dream was done , just no magic in the 996 so it went & after a dabble with a 645Ci found myself on the Z trail , the rest is history :oops: perhaps its why i appreciate the S54 so much ? its very mechanical , raw & almost uncouth :o it makes a noise it really shouldn't but it makes me smile like a kid & i feel alive when i crack it up for a drive :driving:
Had 2 now & will most likely have a 3rd at some point in the future , they are holding strong & can't see that dropping off anytime soon but i really don't see any metaphoric rises at this point that other owners do :?
As ever its a interesting market to follow :thumbsup:
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Post by john-e89 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:25 pm

The M's reputation carries it, often obscuring reality, which seems to be that bought wisely, enjoyed and serviced on time, you'll see your money back. To me anyway that's a damn good return on the initial outlay. But as for a steady rise, no, not to any mentionable degree anyway. Maybe as said when electric, hybrid etc, really kicks in, but zero depreciation is very very good in my view, even if a profit is not seen.
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Post by derin100 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:14 am

nickw6666 wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:13 pm £31k for a 7000 mile car is a good deal, provided you want a nearly new car in terms of condition.

The car is worth that for the buyer that wants a car that has had minimal usage and who wants an original ultra low mileage appreciating classic.

The depreciation on that car as mentioned will be less than a 2-series convertible as mentioned.

So it's horses for courses. If someone wants to use their car as a daily or put 10k plus miles on it a year it would not be a wise investment. But for someone who is keen to buy an ultra low mileage nearly new condition Z4MR, and use it as a 2nd car, it makes a lot of sense.

As for whether the low usage would be a problem that would be very unlikely and for a prospective buyer the simple answer would be to get the car checked over by BMW, which the seller would no doubt be very happy to arrange if the car is so good.

The seller is looking for the right buyer who appreciates and is prepared to pay to get probably the lowest mileage Z4MR in the country.

For those that think £30k is too much money for an ultra low mileage Z4MR, have a little look at air cooled Porsche 911 prices,, M3 CSL prices with the unloved SMG gearbox, and 1M coupe prices with an N54 non-motorsport engine! :)

Yes, I agree and I don't disagree with the price either. There's only one car and it will take only one buyer who wants it and will be prepared to pay it. It will be someone who wants that car for themselves though rather than as a speculative "investment".

The figures as an "investment" just don't stack up.

The examples of air-cooled 911s or M3 CSLs aren't valid though...at this point in time. Their prices (or rather the sudden jump in their prices) was totally manipulated by a small cartel of dealers and a few motoring hacks. It's been done many times before with other cars as well....E30M3s, E9 CSs along with the E46 CSLs mentioned. I've had all of those cars and each time I've seen the 'punters' fall for it.

Take what on the face of it seems like the extreme example of the M3 CSL (but would equally well apply to the E30 M3):

Before what I'll call "The Hype" happened I tried, for over a year to sell mine for £30K before it eventually went. That was about 6 years ago.

http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/2003_M3_CSL/index.html

What would that car realistically sell for now? £60K ? So, I often think: "Oh God! If only I'd have hung on to it!" Such that I can barely bring myself to look at adverts for them. :lol:

But, I try to console myself with the following:

1) I, like most Average Joes, will find it difficult to predict what cartelist dealers and journos are to hype next and for how long. Anybody else notice how it's gone quiet on the E30 M3 and CSL front of late? That's because the dealers have made their money by hyping and then shifted on to do the same with something else leaving those who bought at the top of the hype high and dry and now trying to shift their (often average quality) purchases at totally unrealistic prices in the private classifieds.

2) By remembering how much so-called 'Profit' that I would really have made by hanging on to it.
It cost more like £2K/annum just to owned and that's assuming no repairs were needed.
At the time I did also have more than £30k's worth of debts/mortgage etc. and reckoned £30K shaved off those debts was worth about £1200/annum.
So that's £3200/annum true ownership costs without even driving it. Over 6 years that would have come to £19,200.

£60,000 minus £19200 is £40,800. That's £10,800 more than I sold it for 6 years ago...or, £1800 a year "profit"!

Nice...but hardly a life-changing amount?!

And how many Average Joes really possess the crystal ball required to predict the fickleness of "number 1" above? :roll:
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Post by Reyno1970 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:10 pm

Hi,

Is your Coupe still for sale? Looked at the threads and seen 2 prices quoted! What is your asking price?

Many thanks - Wayne

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Post by Angelus666 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:49 pm

I had a CSL for 3 years as well from 2006 to 2009 (sold for £24k)....great car, but never worth 4 Z4M's in my opinion.

My crystal ball says that as soon as we see an interest rate hike then the car bubble will burst....and 'normal' stuff like M3's, old porkers and other overhyped lotus and the like will get a hammering. People will think "f*ck, how will I pay my mortgage" and dump the garage queen cars super quick....never in history have we seen the rise of modern car valuations like in the last few years.

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Post by derin100 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:31 am

Angelus666 wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:49 pm I had a CSL for 3 years as well from 2006 to 2009 (sold for £24k)....great car, but never worth 4 Z4M's in my opinion.

My crystal ball says that as soon as we see an interest rate hike then the car bubble will burst....and 'normal' stuff like M3's, old porkers and other overhyped lotus and the like will get a hammering. People will think "f*ck, how will I pay my mortgage" and dump the garage queen cars super quick....never in history have we seen the rise of modern car valuations like in the last few years.
Agreed!
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Post by monkadill » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:06 pm

Bought for 11k - traded in for 11k after 3 years and now up for £14290..

http://www.autowerks2010.com/bmw-z4-m-2dr-6200720
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Post by srhutch » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:33 pm

monkadill wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:06 pm Bought for 11k - traded in for 11k after 3 years and now up for £14290..

http://www.autowerks2010.com/bmw-z4-m-2dr-6200720
Could have got yourself an easy £500 if you had put the original air box back.
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Post by Muckinonthesofa » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:37 pm

srhutch wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:33 pm
monkadill wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:06 pm Bought for 11k - traded in for 11k after 3 years and now up for £14290..

http://www.autowerks2010.com/bmw-z4-m-2dr-6200720
Could have got yourself an easy £500 if you had put the original air box back.
Giving a Gruppe M to a trader, sacrilege :D :P
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Post by mr wilks » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Muckinonthesofa wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:37 pm
srhutch wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:33 pm
monkadill wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:06 pm Bought for 11k - traded in for 11k after 3 years and now up for £14290..

http://www.autowerks2010.com/bmw-z4-m-2dr-6200720
Could have got yourself an easy £500 if you had put the original air box back.
Giving a Gruppe M to a trader, sacrilege :D :P
Indeed absolute sacrilege offloading the car for trade money & leaving quality trinkets on :oops:
Alloys & flaps will be the dealers worst enemy achieving that ask though :( very personal add on's that for me are killing the cars ///M looks :( sorry mr M :cry: no offence intended , , be interesting to see how quick it shifts , if stood on its 224s with flaps off then really difficult to fault & the dealer should well see a decent margin
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Post by Z4M-2006 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:31 pm

derin100 wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:14 am
nickw6666 wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:13 pm £31k for a 7000 mile car is a good deal, provided you want a nearly new car in terms of condition.

The car is worth that for the buyer that wants a car that has had minimal usage and who wants an original ultra low mileage appreciating classic.

The depreciation on that car as mentioned will be less than a 2-series convertible as mentioned.

So it's horses for courses. If someone wants to use their car as a daily or put 10k plus miles on it a year it would not be a wise investment. But for someone who is keen to buy an ultra low mileage nearly new condition Z4MR, and use it as a 2nd car, it makes a lot of sense.

As for whether the low usage would be a problem that would be very unlikely and for a prospective buyer the simple answer would be to get the car checked over by BMW, which the seller would no doubt be very happy to arrange if the car is so good.

The seller is looking for the right buyer who appreciates and is prepared to pay to get probably the lowest mileage Z4MR in the country.

For those that think £30k is too much money for an ultra low mileage Z4MR, have a little look at air cooled Porsche 911 prices,, M3 CSL prices with the unloved SMG gearbox, and 1M coupe prices with an N54 non-motorsport engine! :)

Yes, I agree and I don't disagree with the price either. There's only one car and it will take only one buyer who wants it and will be prepared to pay it. It will be someone who wants that car for themselves though rather than as a speculative "investment".

The figures as an "investment" just don't stack up.

The examples of air-cooled 911s or M3 CSLs aren't valid though...at this point in time. Their prices (or rather the sudden jump in their prices) was totally manipulated by a small cartel of dealers and a few motoring hacks. It's been done many times before with other cars as well....E30M3s, E9 CSs along with the E46 CSLs mentioned. I've had all of those cars and each time I've seen the 'punters' fall for it.

Take what on the face of it seems like the extreme example of the M3 CSL (but would equally well apply to the E30 M3):

Before what I'll call "The Hype" happened I tried, for over a year to sell mine for £30K before it eventually went. That was about 6 years ago.

http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/2003_M3_CSL/index.html

What would that car realistically sell for now? £60K ? So, I often think: "Oh God! If only I'd have hung on to it!" Such that I can barely bring myself to look at adverts for them. :lol:

But, I try to console myself with the following:

1) I, like most Average Joes, will find it difficult to predict what cartelist dealers and journos are to hype next and for how long. Anybody else notice how it's gone quiet on the E30 M3 and CSL front of late? That's because the dealers have made their money by hyping and then shifted on to do the same with something else leaving those who bought at the top of the hype high and dry and now trying to shift their (often average quality) purchases at totally unrealistic prices in the private classifieds.

2) By remembering how much so-called 'Profit' that I would really have made by hanging on to it.
It cost more like £2K/annum just to owned and that's assuming no repairs were needed.
At the time I did also have more than £30k's worth of debts/mortgage etc. and reckoned £30K shaved off those debts was worth about £1200/annum.
So that's £3200/annum true ownership costs without even driving it. Over 6 years that would have come to £19,200.

£60,000 minus £19200 is £40,800. That's £10,800 more than I sold it for 6 years ago...or, £1800 a year "profit"!

Nice...but hardly a life-changing amount?!

And how many Average Joes really possess the crystal ball required to predict the fickleness of "number 1" above? :roll:

Sums it up....Along with Angelus's point..

I dont think there has ever been a time in the past when interest rates have been artificially held so low to try and stimulate the economy,its barely working... London has cooled significantly over the past year and the rest of the country is following suit.

The government and financial institutions should be ashamed at the way they are moulding the populus,especially the younger generation.

I remembering it all happening in the mid/late 80's when E type jags,Austin Healeys GT's Etc fell 50% within the space of a couple of weeks..

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Post by mj2k » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:29 pm

Z4M-2006 wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:31 pm
I remembering it all happening in the mid/late 80's when E type jags,Austin Healeys GT's Etc fell 50% within the space of a couple of weeks..
No disrespect to those it will affect, but will welcome that as some future investment opportunities for 'next time around', or at least to get my hands on some cars I've been priced out of the market on.

Didn't have the £35k free cash in 2009 for a 355, but damn do I wish I did based on current price.
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Post by Z4M-2006 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:49 pm

mj2k wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:29 pm
Z4M-2006 wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:31 pm
I remembering it all happening in the mid/late 80's when E type jags,Austin Healeys GT's Etc fell 50% within the space of a couple of weeks..
No disrespect to those it will affect, but will welcome that as some future investment opportunities for 'next time around', or at least to get my hands on some cars I've been priced out of the market on.

Didn't have the £35k free cash in 2009 for a 355, but damn do I wish I did based on current price.


If you can pick what will be big in 25 years you will be a millionaire....

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Post by Angelus666 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:42 pm

So, where would be the best place to put your £30k as a car investment? A low mile Z4M seems sensible if you look at the prices of low mile Z3M's. I'd feel more comfortable with it there over an E92, 987 S, C63 or even a 997.1...

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