Tough Roof problem 2009 E89

[Rob E89]

So this is not going to be an easy question. I am brand new to the BMW world and just got my E89 10 days ago. In that time i have learnt a lot about BMW, the Z4s and the E89 roof.

My hard top is not folding away, I push the button (internal trunk cover is latched), the windows roll down, I hear some clicks in the trunk(I presume the locking latches to keep the roof on), then nothing. I have no error codes. So far this is what I have done:

-Checked the fuse in passenger footwell
-Taken out the salmon relays and tested them to make sure they engage(clicking with 12v), and the resistances look good.
-Taken out the electric motor that runs the hydraulic pump, took the cover off the motor and gave the interior a good cleaning with contact cleaner(the pump and hydro unit looks new).
-Reassembled the motor, and tested it with 12v (electric motor runs strong)
-Downloaded ISTA+ and checked CTM for sensor and any other issues(I posted a pic of the results in the forum post linked below, it seems all sensors and switches are working how they should)

https://zroadster.org/threads/tough-roof-problem-2009-e89.74607/

-Taken out the CTM Module and looked at the circuit board for signs of corrosion (zero corrosion on board).
-With the trunk in service mode and the internal trunk cover latched down, I Tested all the wires going into the salmon relays(the + wires that switch on the salmon relays never have any power, even when pushing the roof open button. So i think the pump is fine, its an upstream wiring problem at some point before the salmon relays)


Tomorrow I will test the resistance in the two positive relay switch wires that go from the CTM to the relay. They might be broken but I doubt it. Does anyone with experience in this topic have any ideas i may have missed? Im not afraid to get my hands dirty wrenching, or dive into electronics/computer programming stuff if needed.

I only have a basic knowledge in ISTA+, and I learned how to use NCS tools too, but I don't think that will help with this issue.

 

[RobbiZ4]

I presume the locking latches to keep the roof on

Don't exist anywhere.

-Taken out the salmon relays and tested them to make sure they engage(clicking with 12v), and the resistances look good.

They never fail this way,. Only burned internal contacts of >>5 year old relay may be an issue.

Taken out the electric motor that runs the hydraulic pump, took the cover off the motor and gave the interior a good cleaning with contact cleaner(the pump and hydro unit looks new).

This is never ever a problem, except the trunk was flooded with water.

Tomorrow I will test the resistance in the two positive relay switch wires that go from the CTM to the relay. They might be broken but I doubt it.

How should that happen? Only by violence in the trunk.

 

[bigwinn]

Disappointing that no codes are presenting

Ista can show live data streams from memory to check the end to end process, but my next step would be to check/replace the 2x hall sensors and 2x microswitches that commonly fail, especially as you have looked at the relays already

 

[flybobbie]

Salmon relays should always be replaced.
I had one faulty yet it worked perfect on the bench and multimetered.
New pair cured problem my car had.

 

[RobbiZ4]

Salmon relays should always be replaced.

Correct, if the originals from 2011 are still mounted.

New pair cured problem my car had.

Rob stated, that there is no power signal to these relays (orange and white wire).
From my point of view ok, as the CTM has identified an issue on the roof environment. and won't start the pump.

@Rob
Get the stop conditions ("Sperrbedingungen") checked in ISTA.

What about the 4 windows? Going down after pressing the roof open button? If not, check the initialization status of all 4 in ISTA.

 

[Rob E89]

Its good to know there are no rear locking latches in the rear, ill try to identify the sound I hear after the windows have gone down.

The salmon relays are from the 36th week of 2021 (4 years old). I will get new ones next time im near a BMW dealer.

All 4 windows go fully down when i hold the roof open button.

I agree @Robbiz4, I think the CTM is not sending a signal to turn the pump on. How do I find the stop conditions in ISTA? Ill have a look around and see if i can find it

@bigwinn I can replace the 2x hall sensors and 2x microswitches that commonly fail, but would they not send an error code and show faulty status in ISTA? Ill turn the car on and push the roof open button while in ISTA to read the live data of the switches

@flybobbie Thats good to know, Ill pick up some new ones soon. What issue did your car have when the relays were not working?

EDIT:

I got my friend to push the roof open switch while my head was in the trunk(trunk in "service" mode and internal trunk cover down). The clicking noise i thought was the roof latches unlocking was actually one of the 3 hydraulic pump solenoids clicking open. Im going back onto ISTA now to try and figure out why the CTM isn't sending power to the motor.

 

[RobbiZ4]

Get the windows checked or even initialized in ISTA. That is one of the common stoppers.

Relays should be fine after 4 years, no doubt.

Btw,
I can't see any fault in your ISTA screenshots on the other forum. It's perfectly closed and locked.


Can you measure +12V on the red fuse box next to the battery? The grey plug is for the pump.

In INPA an additional fault bubble is displayed for each sensor. That view is better than the one in ISTA.

 

[Rob E89]

All 4 windows were going down smoothly right to the bottom. I re initialized all the windows and still not working. I reset the FRM module that controls the windows just to be sure but that didnt fix the roof either.

I have 12v on the grey plug on the fuse box next to the battery. I also have 12v going into both salmon relays.

My INPA doesn't have E89 listed on the start screen, ill find another version of INPA that has it then check the sensors again.

 

[RobbiZ4]

Another test would be to check the pump's motor:
disconnect the 4-pole plug next to the pump, connect the red & brown wired pins to plus and minus of the battery for a very short moment. Does it start running?

 

[Rob E89]

Yeah, i tested the motor with a 12v positive and negative wire from a battery and the electric motor starts right up very powerfully. The CTM isnt sending an activation signal to the salmon relays to switch on the motor. I don't think the wiring or CTM itself is damaged.

I suspect there is a hidden issue that when active tells the CTM not to activate the pump. Im not sure what it could be though because all the readouts seem normal. I checked the live reading of the Hydraulic fluid temperature, because I have read it can give a normal temperature at rest, but when you push the button it gives a crazy reading. Mine was stable when pushing the roof open button.

 

[RobbiZ4]

Have a look at the following screenshot, even if it's the German version of INPA.
In ISTA you can't identify AFAIK neither broken wires nor faulty sensors.

 

[Rob E89]

I see. Ill get a better version of INPA and then check asap

 

[Chippie]

All 4 windows were going down smoothly right to the bottom. I re initialized all the windows and still not working. I reset the FRM module that controls the windows just to be sure but that didnt fix the roof either.

I have 12v on the grey plug on the fuse box next to the battery. I also have 12v going into both salmon relays.

My INPA doesn't have E89 listed on the start screen, ill find another version of INPA that has it then check the sensors again.

Just select E90 in INPA

 

[Rob E89]

I got a german language version of INPA that has the E89. Next time ill know to use the E90 if E89 is not available.

What steps did you do, to get to the Sensors and switches readout in your screenshot? @Robbiz4
My German is extremely basic and i spent 20 mins guessing randomly pushing buttons with no luck

 

[RobbiZ4]

Select

• Model (E89)

• Karosserie (Body)

• Cabrioverdeckmodul (CTM)

• Hallsensoren (Sensors)

and check

• Sperrbedingungen (stop conditions)

 

[Rob E89]

Sensors





Lock conditions





The 4 windows are also listed as open
The motor temp is also good
The roof buttons are working
When i push the roof button both relay pumps switch from off to on. Then 1 second later solenoid 2 and 3 turn on for 1 second
Voltages for kl30 and kl15 are both just under 12v

Is the speed set wrong?

 

[Rob E89]

Just select E90 in INPA

Selecting E90 does not work for the CTM, it might work for other modules. Ill put this info here if anyone has a similar problem with INPA and BMW e89 in the future.

Go to C/EC-Apps/INPA/CFGDAT And make sure you have a text file called E89.eng or E89.GER (I can post the text file if you are missing it)

In the same INPA folder above, there is a file called INPA.INI if you open it you can set the f keys (ex f1, f2 f3,...) change the code to be like this:

F6 = E89
F6_ARCHIV = SGBD_E89

So now when I open INPA F6 will give the the option to select E89

Then go to:

C/EC-Apps/INPA/SGDAT/ You should have a file called E89_D_all.IPO another file called CTM_89.IPO and another called emf_89.ipo

With the 4 files mentioned above + changing a bit of text in the INPA.INI the E89 should work with any INPA

 

[RobbiZ4]

Good work!

There are multiple pages to view for the sensors (3-5?) as well as for the Lock conditions (in total 4). The green arrows on the lower right always indicate additionally pages.

Can be switched by the page down/up keys.

These two first pages look OK.


Another question:
Hey Rob, where are you from? Can't see it on any profile. Chance to meet anywhere?

 

[Chippie]

Just select E90 in INPA

Selecting E90 does not work for the CTM, it might work for other modules. Ill put this info here if anyone has a similar problem with INPA and BMW e89 in the future.

Go to C/EC-Apps/INPA/CFGDAT And make sure you have a text file called E89.eng or E89.GER (I can post the text file if you are missing it)

In the same INPA folder above, there is a file called INPA.INI if you open it you can set the f keys (ex f1, f2 f3,...) change the code to be like this:

F6 = E89
F6_ARCHIV = SGBD_E89

So now when I open INPA F6 will give the the option to select E89

Then go to:

C/EC-Apps/INPA/SGDAT/ You should have a file called E89_D_all.IPO another file called CTM_89.IPO and another called emf_89.ipo

With the 4 files mentioned above + changing a bit of text in the INPA.INI the E89 should work with any INPA

Thanks for the information. I will have a look at mine and see what’s there.

 

[Chippie]

Just select E90 in INPA

Selecting E90 does not work for the CTM, it might work for other modules. Ill put this info here if anyone has a similar problem with INPA and BMW e89 in the future.

Go to C/EC-Apps/INPA/CFGDAT And make sure you have a text file called E89.eng or E89.GER (I can post the text file if you are missing it)

In the same INPA folder above, there is a file called INPA.INI if you open it you can set the f keys (ex f1, f2 f3,...) change the code to be like this:

F6 = E89
F6_ARCHIV = SGBD_E89

So now when I open INPA F6 will give the the option to select E89

Then go to:

C/EC-Apps/INPA/SGDAT/ You should have a file called E89_D_all.IPO another file called CTM_89.IPO and another called emf_89.ipo

With the 4 files mentioned above + changing a bit of text in the INPA.INI the E89 should work with any INPA

So, just checked mine and I don’t have any e89 files,
Would I also need the datum files to go with it?
My copy is in German, do you know how I can get an English version?